method9455 Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 So we saw the press releases. What happens now? I am really mad about this because those guys know how to set up a park perfectly, and now they are neither at Mountain Creek nor Jack Frost Big Boulder. That means I can't ride their setups. This means that my season won't be as good as if I COULD ride their setups. 1) First, in my opinion, that was messed up on JFBB's part. The guys put in a huge amount of hours banging out the jibs. I'm not sure about their specific arrangement, it is generally agreed at most workplaces that you work your ass off when a project deadline comes up, and then you don't work as many hours at the start of the next one. The paychecks kind of average out. Basically these guys did all the work up to a deadline (opening), and got cut during the part where they just build the park, and then relax and maintain it. That kind of violates the averaging out the paycheck rule, pretty sketchy on JFBB's part in my opinion. 2) It is a big mistake on JFBB's part. They aren't a very tall mountain. They are the most western of the I-80 mountains. People from NYC/Jersey need a reason to go out there. Why would you go? Well they are pushing the snowmaking ability. That is great, except that once everyone else is open, there are better trails elsewhere. So by mid-season, that point is void. The park was going to separate them. The park made me drive out there and drop money on lift tickets I never would have otherwise. Judging by the number of posts by people who usually go to Mountain Creek and other mountains, who have been to JFBB, they attracted a lot of new riders. Everyone was happy. I said on Monday to a friend that we should get season passes their next year. 3) What does it accomplish? Whoever this nameless person was that they had a fight with, who is he? These guys were worthy of a press release when they arrived because they have a reputation for making excellent parks. I gaurentee you whoever they had a fight with will never be the subject of a press release that attracts a bunch of people to the resort. (Well when he leaves, I'd go back if told in a press release). 4) From a business perspective, nothing about this decision makes sense. They sunk money into snowmaking, money into jib building, money into marketing that these guys came. Things were successful, the jibs were obviously high quality, the parks were made very well, etc etc. They had a bunch of good word of mouth marketing here and elsewhere. Now they abandon that for, well, basically the same guys as they used to have. Once you make a decision, especially one that is working out well and will make MORE money for your company, DON"T GO BACK ON IT! That has to be one of the keys to success. Obviously someone missed that at JFBB. 5) The fact that a jealous guy's opinion is allowed to change the course of a company that invested 2 million dollars into a new snowmaking & park system this year, screams of a lack of professionalism all around. Bottom line, even if the park is just as good as if the ParkLogic guys where there, my opinion of JFBB/Peak has gone from being the highest in the area, back down to even with the others. This is a problem for them, they were on the cusp of having a bunch of loyal riders and skiers. A lot of us are college kids, we bring ski clubs and friends, that becomes a lot of tickets over the course of the season. I work at a shop, a couple dozen people ask me where to ski every year. Last year I was pushing them to Blue. This year I was going to push them to JFBB. Now, I'm not so sure. I hope this can be reconsidered, but honestly, I know it won't. My prediction: The JibLab/ParkLogic guys become consultants like the Planet Snow type guys.
tretiak Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 this is like the 3rd thread like it today if im correct
parkbuilder Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 So we saw the press releases. What happens now? I am really mad about this because those guys know how to set up a park perfectly, and now they are neither at Mountain Creek nor Jack Frost Big Boulder. That means I can't ride their setups. This means that my season won't be as good as if I COULD ride their setups. 1) First, in my opinion, that was messed up on JFBB's part. The guys put in a huge amount of hours banging out the jibs. I'm not sure about their specific arrangement, it is generally agreed at most workplaces that you work your ass off when a project deadline comes up, and then you don't work as many hours at the start of the next one. The paychecks kind of average out. Basically these guys did all the work up to a deadline (opening), and got cut during the part where they just build the park, and then relax and maintain it. That kind of violates the averaging out the paycheck rule, pretty sketchy on JFBB's part in my opinion. 2) It is a big mistake on JFBB's part. They aren't a very tall mountain. They are the most western of the I-80 mountains. People from NYC/Jersey need a reason to go out there. Why would you go? Well they are pushing the snowmaking ability. That is great, except that once everyone else is open, there are better trails elsewhere. So by mid-season, that point is void. The park was going to separate them. The park made me drive out there and drop money on lift tickets I never would have otherwise. Judging by the number of posts by people who usually go to Mountain Creek and other mountains, who have been to JFBB, they attracted a lot of new riders. Everyone was happy. I said on Monday to a friend that we should get season passes their next year. 3) What does it accomplish? Whoever this nameless person was that they had a fight with, who is he? These guys were worthy of a press release when they arrived because they have a reputation for making excellent parks. I gaurentee you whoever they had a fight with will never be the subject of a press release that attracts a bunch of people to the resort. (Well when he leaves, I'd go back if told in a press release). 4) From a business perspective, nothing about this decision makes sense. They sunk money into snowmaking, money into jib building, money into marketing that these guys came. Things were successful, the jibs were obviously high quality, the parks were made very well, etc etc. They had a bunch of good word of mouth marketing here and elsewhere. Now they abandon that for, well, basically the same guys as they used to have. Once you make a decision, especially one that is working out well and will make MORE money for your company, DON"T GO BACK ON IT! That has to be one of the keys to success. Obviously someone missed that at JFBB. 5) The fact that a jealous guy's opinion is allowed to change the course of a company that invested 2 million dollars into a new snowmaking & park system this year, screams of a lack of professionalism all around. Bottom line, even if the park is just as good as if the ParkLogic guys where there, my opinion of JFBB/Peak has gone from being the highest in the area, back down to even with the others. This is a problem for them, they were on the cusp of having a bunch of loyal riders and skiers. A lot of us are college kids, we bring ski clubs and friends, that becomes a lot of tickets over the course of the season. I work at a shop, a couple dozen people ask me where to ski every year. Last year I was pushing them to Blue. This year I was going to push them to JFBB. Now, I'm not so sure. I hope this can be reconsidered, but honestly, I know it won't. My prediction: The JibLab/ParkLogic guys become consultants like the Planet Snow type guys. I couldn't agree with you more... what a bomb shell. And yes, it's worth three threads! voice your opinion!
Papasteeze Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 This may end up being long, so skip it now. Where to start? To those that know us, it has been a struggle to find a hill to call home for numerous reasons, mostly because the terrain and/or program does not match our skill levels. Back in the end of september I caught wind of a major move, something that was right on the cutting edge of what needed to be done at one or all of hills. I can not for life of me figure out with our densly populated area, figure out why no one has capitalized on the park scene by creating "the place to be". It sounded and looked like it was going to happen. Few if any in our area have the experience with travel and sampling the quantity of ski resorts. I think 22 different ones last year, 24 the year before. I have a racer, a freestyler, a middle ager, girls, boys, teenagers toddlers, etc etc etc. I spend hours upon hours a day scouring and devouring snow related information. I know a good thing when I see it, I know BS when I hear it. The program from marketing mediums, to the fabrication, to the enthusiasm and passion that was conveyed from these 2 guys more than sold me. It was professional in every aspect. It doesn't matter to the consumer whose feathers they rustled, it only mattered that they deliver what they promised. I am cynical and doubting by nature, I have heard it all before and am tired of getting burnt.. I do not have any doubts in my mind that these 2 are leaders and that others should follow and take notes and learn on how to run a park oriented business. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. I wish I owned a mountain. Something just doesn't sit right with me. I would believe, that those two guys were "used" with the intent of being fired once they got the rails fabricated, before I would believe that a resort saavy enough to hire these "guns" isn't saavy enough to quell infighting amongst thier ranks. Or is the deal that those who were complaining. are now faced with following through. what I know would have been the sickest program in our entire region. I hope that who ever was complaining, head rolls, if they don't continue to deliver "The program from marketing mediums, to the fabrication, to the enthusiasm and passion" now add on execution set up and maintenance. I mean come on....... the weather has been warm, tempers and impatience were probably at an all time high to deliver the goods. These hired guns were under pressure. They were going to see thier representations through even if it meant ruffling some feathers. What is the matter with that? They were more than doing the job they were hired for in my opinion. I am going to keep a positive outlook and say that if Shawn and Julian were under pressure to deliver, then who ever is taking thier place is under twice as much to live up to thier level and that that person is hugely motivated to work 15 hours days 7 days a week and do what ever possible to have a world class park, top shelf competitions, that that person is going to get the sponsors and is organized and knowledgable on how to make it all happen. That is what we all are rooting for. Go BB.. BTW - if BB management has read this far, you owe those guys another job. Along with reams of glowing reccomendations.
method9455 Posted December 12, 2006 Author Report Posted December 12, 2006 I'm starting with this post, moving on to email, then a paper letter, maybe some petitions thrown in there. Last time I got pissed off about something (the education system in my town) I ended up on the Rush Limbaugh show for 45 minutes, then Fox News channel twice, so I can become rather irritating when I set my mind to it. I doubt many people will actually care about this one (its only skiing), but I'm not letting this one slide. Realize what Peak did was basically offer these guys a job for the season, and pull the carpet out from under them. Now realize their marketable skills aren't very marketable now that the season started. Sure they can find a mountain next year, but what the hell are they going to do for the next 3 months? That is just unethical when they brought the two in (and we're not talking about being lifties, they got a press release when they were hired)
method9455 Posted December 12, 2006 Author Report Posted December 12, 2006 I feel you, the saddest part of the whole deal is now these guys are out of our region. They left Creek, they were shafted by Big Boulder, now they'll probably land out west or in Vermont somewhere and we'll be back to 1999 all over again. Looks like Bear Creek will have the best park after all, too bad it doesn't get cold enough for them to make snow.
Tyler Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 i agree, Peak screwed up here. They will figure that out sooner or later. Why would they want to ruin the best thing that has happened to BB in years?
bigdaddyk Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 I feel you, the saddest part of the whole deal is now these guys are out of our region. They left Creek, they were shafted by Big Boulder, now they'll probably land out west or in Vermont somewhere and we'll be back to 1999 all over again. Looks like Bear Creek will have the best park after all, too bad it doesn't get cold enough for them to make snow. The thing that makes me wonder is, why are they not at MC and why are they not at BB? That's two resorts, and could it be the same reason for both resorts? Unless if anybody actually knows all of the details, its unfair to blame one side or the other.
bigdaddyk Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 i agree, Peak screwed up here. They will figure that out sooner or later. Why would they want to ruin the best thing that has happened to BB in years? Sometimes you got to move on, to better yourself. This might apply to either side.
Barb Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 It's all crap!! They should have worked out whatever problems they had and at least gone one season with the ParkLogic guys. My kids are young but I know they will be into the terrain park when they get better. I was happy that the mountain 5 minutes from my vacation house was going to have the best one around. Everyone should be posting all these threads. I don't know the details, but it seems like they put in all the work and delivered on their promises. I hope BB gave them a very generous severance pay
ThinkSnow Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 (Merged topics with Papa's, trying to keep the thoughts together)
Papasteeze Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 I couldn't agree with you more... what a bomb shell. And yes, it's worth three threads! voice your opinion! Thanks for speaking up Keith. I have alot of respect for you and what you did with Shawnee last year. Have you ever met shawn and julian? They are you times 3 LOL! I think with what Method is saying is right on. There is another point that is being missed. Has anyone quizzed the MC park people to find out how worried they are for this year. They are really worried. Some of the most snide people are now humbled that shawn and julian left there..
First Grade Teacher Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 They probably pissed off a boss and got fired. That's how business works! They don't care if your the Pope, they are the boss!
Papasteeze Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) i agree, Peak screwed up here. They will figure that out sooner or later. Why would they want to ruin the best thing that has happened to BB in years? apparently, they were too hard to work with and for the sake of the "atmosphere" they had to be let go. It sucks for us, on the other hand I don't believe for one moment that any position at a ski resort could not be easily replaced. SO WHO IS REPLACING THEM? There is a something we might be missing and that is fallout from the long time patrons of BB in the Lake Harmony area. Edited December 12, 2006 by Papasteeze
librider Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 Big screw up on BB's part. This whole park this has brought many many people to BB this year. Lets just hope BB can keep the setup decent and not piss off their customers who left their home mtn to ride BB.
Papasteeze Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 It's all crap!! They should have worked out whatever problems they had and at least gone one season with the ParkLogic guys. My kids are young but I know they will be into the terrain park when they get better. I was happy that the mountain 5 minutes from my vacation house was going to have the best one around. Everyone should be posting all these threads. I don't know the details, but it seems like they put in all the work and delivered on their promises. I hope BB gave them a very generous severance pay haha Barb - you neglected to mention that you own and run your own business.
toast21602 Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 i'm sure there is a good reason why they arent there anymore. before everybody starts to bash on boulder, maybe we should find out what really happened?
bigdaddyk Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 They probably pissed off a boss and got fired. That's how business works! They don't care if your the Pope, they are the boss! There's two sides to every story. That's why I don't see why everybody is blaming BB. Maybe it isn't BB's fault, maybe it is....nobody here knows exactly what happened.
Papasteeze Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 i'm sure there is a good reason why they arent there anymore. before everybody starts to bash on boulder, maybe we should find out what really happened? I posted the reason. Here is some insight from a trusted advisor, this might help shed some light on what happened. my knowlege of this industry is that it is a highly "specialized" community of people that most likely got into the industry because of their love of sport/resort life. Most of the mountain operations managers have worked their way into those positions by years of dedication and service, but they lack formal educations that would allow them to take their skill into the world outside the industry to make a living. Hence, they protect their "turf", and squabble over petty shit that dosen't benefit the owners, or patrons. Decision are made over "turf wars" rather than sound business decisions, and ego's seem to get in the way of everyone working together towards a common good. (This has been my experience both directly and indirectly.) It's like having middle management that is never given the opportunity to make decisions because "upper" management micro-manages their decisions. so there you go!.......... make sense?............ not too late for a reconciliation!.......... kiss and make up would ya guys? There's two sides to every story. That's why I don't see why everybody is blaming BB. Maybe it isn't BB's fault, maybe it is....nobody here knows exactly what happened. ya think? read this thread again!
joe g Posted December 12, 2006 Report Posted December 12, 2006 Welcome to the ski industry....where sound business pratices take a back seat to fragile male ego's (quoted by the great diamond dave gruber) it sucks for these two guys, it sucks really bad. but jfbb will learn quickly what kind of mistake they made, then put the pressure on whoever takes over for them. i feel for that person(s) as well
Papasteeze Posted December 13, 2006 Report Posted December 13, 2006 Welcome to the ski industry....where sound business pratices take a back seat to fragile male ego's (quoted by the great diamond dave gruber) it sucks for these two guys, it sucks really bad. but jfbb will learn quickly what kind of mistake they made, then put the pressure on whoever takes over for them. i feel for that person(s) as well Thanks for chiming in Joe! (roundtop's park manager, in the house!) That advisor I mentioned is from the prestigious, Diamond Dave!
jordan Posted December 13, 2006 Report Posted December 13, 2006 how do we know BB fired these guys and they didng just get pissed off and leave? Jordan
Papasteeze Posted December 13, 2006 Report Posted December 13, 2006 how do we know BB fired these guys and they didng just get pissed off and leave? because we know.
NiftySHIFTY Posted December 13, 2006 Report Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) I'm pretty sure they didn't just get pissed and leave...especially since about 10 days ago they were so psyched about the new features they were going to be building (I(we) was talking with Shawn). And, if you got pissed, would you later come on a message board and say that your leaving? Probably not. I haven't been on PASR in a few days/week posting, and once I heard about this from a friend I had to come on here to see what was up. I can't imagine what would have gone wrong...the couple BB guys I talked to seemed super pumped to have Julian and Shawn around. Weird...I hope we find out more of what happened...we're a large community here, and hopefully we can change this back around. Also, Papa obviously knows more about this than all of us, I don't know why it has to stay a secret. because we know. No, WE don't know...YOU know and won't share. Edited December 13, 2006 by NiftySHIFTY
Papasteeze Posted December 13, 2006 Report Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) Also, Papa obviously knows more about this than all of us, I don't know why it has to stay a secret.No, WE don't know...YOU know and won't share. jesus guys..... read the thread. it is explained throughout. I just don't like saying it. Let's put it this way, they didn't quit, OK? Edited December 13, 2006 by Papasteeze
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