Old Geezer

Elk is like a lot of family-centric ski areas in that they get very light crowds before the holidays. No matter how early in the season they open. Their ski school, bar/restaurant/cafeteria, rental shop, ski shop (if they still have one) all cost more to keep open than they take-in during the slow days in early season. I'd put Elk in the same category as Platty, Timberline, Bellayre, Blue Knob for this. They're all more out of the way of big population areas, somewhat family centric, and there are other options closer to the population centers, all of which make a difference when people have especially busy lives leading up to the holidays. The one upside is if the ski area has good snow making and top notch grooming early in the season, e.g., the groomers and snow makers aren't green and don't have to newly learn their skills as the season progresses, then the empty slopes and great snow conditions can be really excellent.

There's a long running thread (four years) on AZ on this question. To cherry pick one quote in there, we need to hear from any long time season pass holder, because "... those guys always know everything, first." Link.

The staff might very well be under NDA. But there are hundreds of locals who can and will pick up on even a hint of a whiff of a clue of this. And word travels fast in that part of the world. So while it cannot be ruled completely out, if something like this has been in the works for eight weeks from early July to now (early Sept) someone will have picked up on it.

Losing Elk to the big corporate skiing giants would be a gain for Plattekill and Bellayre.

When some unlucky employee was about to deposit the weekend's cash into a local bank. Video story here: This all happened back in 1976. Rough estimate is that 50K is about $250,000 adjusted for inflation. The famous (for back then) Newswatch 16 trumpet jingle theme music is in there, too. I'll say it before anyone else does, Vermont was not all rainbows and sunshine ... back in 1976.

@paul45, An attorney will likely not get anymore from the HOA about "ongoing legal disputes" and that's standard practice. But that's not what you want him to do, you want him to find the history of past cases, settlements and agreements and the current status of things. He can lookup past cases and agreements, formal or informal, from both Elk and the HOA. My guess is being allowed to buy parking passes is probably related to ADA compliance and not a sign the working relationship has improved. There's a law in Pennsylvania governing RE sales of Condominiums that says a seller must disclose any and all ongoing or expected legal proceedings the condo association is party to, with large liability for being inaccurate or incomplete. The seller gets this info from the HOA and puts it on the sales disclosure form. Sometimes/often/frequently RE agents insist sellers get legally binding documents from the HOA board or the management company attesting to this. Every licensed RE Agent in PA knows this, if so much as a hint that they don't then get a better agent. To some this is considered too late in the process, i.e., you found a condo you like, you are close making an offer, and it's only then that you find out about legal proceedings when you see the disclosure form. With the history there at VOFS this works in favor of the seller. Note also "HOA" and "Condominium Association" are used interchangeably, however in PA there are two different governing laws. The rules and case law are not always the same. Get you RE agent to find out if VOFS is incorporated as a condominium or as an HOA. Moore is the family name of the guy who owns (pretty sure he does not own 100%) Elk. He at one time owned a car dealership in Montgomery County (Conshohocken), PA, and it was named Moore Motors or something like that. You can still see the empty building, looks like it was last used 50 years ago, whenever I drive by it I think that's the guy who is Elk Mountain. So the legal entities Moore Motors and Elk are closely related, if not the same. Good luck, and report back, we'll all like to know how it proceeds.

At the exit of the VOFS, across the road, in a field seemingly owned by or rented to Elk, you see this sign: You can’t not see it, it’s in your face and that seems to be the point. Note that it’s addressed to owners, renters, guests and their visitors and their families. Effectively anyone owning, living or visiting VOFS. So yes there’s still serious ill-will being projected. I used to deal with and got to know a few well-connected people in the area (none are owners in VOFS), well connected with local banks and builders and such. They scratch their heads when explaining it’s now (after 10+ years of court/legal battles) a personal thing coming from the 80+ year old owner of Elk in an effort to drive down property values in VOFS. They say in all other aspects of business and commerce the 80+ year old is savvy and astute – is/was on BOD of a local bank, etc. – it’s only this isolated thing that seems to be his pet peeve where he channels his ill will. I also heard about the VOFS side from the legal types, the history is there were two or so VOFS owners than adamantly resisted any and all settlement with Elk. These peoples have since sold their properties and now the VOFS is left to deal with the results . Locals say Elk will not sell season passes, locker rentals, etc. to any VOFS owners, renters, etc. It’s day tickets only if you want to ski. This is somehow strictly enforced behind the scenes, to the point of having background checks done on season pass applications. There’s a “you are guilty until proven innocent” vetting process in place. Don’t know about kids racing programs, or employment as instructor or patroller positions. If you are thinking about any of these suggest you deep-dive investigate and get it all in writing before you buy, you want no surprises. Disclaimer, all this is from three years ago. I don’t think it has changed or else the people I know would have said so. That picture of the sign was taken a few years ago but as of last autumn the sign was still there. Edit to add: Trivia, at one time VOFS had one ski trail and one chair lift, last I looked you could see both these from Google Earth images. If I were you, i.e., someone getting serious about buying there, I’d do two things, 1-get a different RE Agent. You discovered what he/she told you about LLC owners doesn’t hold true. RE agents are supposed to know the local market, on this alone the agent you engaged does not, he/she should be telling you all this stuff instead of you getting it from a ski blog. 2- Pay for a few hours of a local attorney’s time and have him to talk on the record to the VOFS BOD and their attorney to clarify what I mentioned above, and (for extra credit) have him contact Elk or their attorney to ask for confirmation of the no season pass, no kids ski programs, no ski patrolling, no instructing, no gate access, no lockers, day tickets are the only thing they’ll sell to you. You want no surprises in a RE transaction like this.

Interesting article, but it's ten years old.

Blue Knob, Tussey Mt, Elk and Montage seem like the man men standing. The other players -- Sawmill, Spring Mt, Eagle Rock, Shawnee, Nemacolin/Mystic* -- seem too small to matter. *If I missed any it was not intentional.

Is this video from Blue's opening day, did one of you make it, and who's who in the vid? Fess up! https://www.instagram.com/p/CV0wonbgH3p/

Yee Hah, get your ski legs on! I always find my ski legs work much better at the bar afterwards than on the WROD the first day out. Kinda like a fish story. A fisherman catches a four inch minnow at his secret fishin' hole. The fisherman is packing it in for the day and he sees a fellow fisherman and tells his story but the four inch minnow is now an eight inch trout. By the time the fisherman is at the bar he caught a state record fish! My opening day ski story -- how was your first day out this season? -- has worked like that ... for the last 40 years.

Windham and Hunter opening 26-Nov, Bellayre 27-Nov.

To put Elk's snowmaking in some geographic perspective: North and East: Bellayre says snowmaking has begun, Plattekill no mention of snowmaking - they rely more on natural snow than other resorts, Wyndham webcams show snow making has started, and making nice progress. Hunter webcams show a nice start in progress, could easily open by the weekend. Northwest: Greek Peak: Webcams show snowmaking has begun. South: Montage shows snow making has started. East: Holiday Mt, NY (Not to to be confused with Holiday Valley NY) - no news on their website. Mt. Peter, NY - Webcam offline, says "closed for the season. We are grateful to our staff, ... and we can’t wait to see you all next season" They didn't get the memo it is next season! - These two NY resorts (hills) are more weekend/family focused and so will not be early starters in making snow. Summary: Montage to the south of Elk seems to have one or two days head start in making snow. Competing mountains to the North are about four or five days ahead. It's fascinating to watch how the start of a winter ski season moves north to south like it is right now. Could not do this 15 years ago because not every report had webcams.

Webcams cleared now. That must have been the (traditional early season maintenance) effort to fire up the air compressors and blow the squirrels out of the snow guns! I glanced at the webcam pics other day and saw a nice blanket of snow. Mostly gone now.

Do you think it's a coincidence or not the guns are turned on and the webcams become iced over so you (or Elk's competitors) can't see the snow making progress?

According to a source in the area the "dirt work" reported above is regrading and re-contouring the three steep and narrow trails on the SE side (skier's right). He says no word on condos or any habitable structures.

Building a 200 unit condo complex doing is not something that will fly under the radar of the local (municipal) and county planning and permitting processes. There's water, sewer, power, runoff specifications that have to be addressed. You get the permitting and legal things in order before you move any dirt or cut any trees down. On the other hand this is Susquehanna County and associated small municipalities with part time officals which likely do not have complicated permitting and approval processes like Scranton, the Lehigh Valley, Philadelphia, etc. More that a few people will know if an actual 200 unit construction project is in the works, architects, builders, firms that do the permitting, the county office staff. If dirt and trees have already been moved then someone knows what's up, we just need to find out who, get them to 'fess up, and someone report back here!

There are choices you can proactively make, - put the bar down or not. Old part-time ski patroller (and full time ER doc) I knew used to say the bar on a chairlift is like a seat belt in a car. - adjust your gear while on the chair or not. - Swing your legs so the chair bounces and sways. - Stick your poles out side the 'zone' so said poles catch on something, trees, etc, get caught on the tree and pull you out of the chair. Many choices.

NWS says Lenoxville (about 4 miles away opposite direction from Union Dale) recorded 21 ins. Check out this NWS link while it's still good (until next weather event), some locations in the NWS forecast territory (Binghampton, NY) clocked in at 41, 42 and 43 ins. You don't see snow totals like this very often: https://forecast.weather.gov/product.php?site=BGM&issuedby=BGM&product=PNS&format=TXT&version=1&glossary=0

I'm hearing this latest "Limited-Time Mitigation Order" will force PA ski areas to stay closed until 04 Jan 2021. I hope not, but good advice is plan accordingly.

The downside is weekend weather forecast shows temps in the mid to upper 40s with > 50 % chance of rain.

The quarantining is supposed to work in both directions, if you travel to VT you are supposed to meet VT requirements for travel from another state. And when you travel back to PA from another state you are supposed to meet new requirements that start 20Nov: https://www.health.pa.gov/topics/disease/coronavirus/Pages/Travelers.aspx

A head's up, there is officially a quarantine up here for anyone into the state: https://www.healthvermont.gov/covid-19/travel-quarantine/visitors-vermont

From a VT newspaper: When are Vermont's ski areas opening in 2020? A mountain-by-mountain roundup.

Very nice, copy added for the record.