Papasteeze

UGHHH - I just took another look at the link Sib posted, those are the World Cup not Competion series. The skis are at my ski shop so I can't compare side by side, but they do at a glance look like the advertisement. These are the first few lines cut from the auction ad. skis FISCHER 2005 COMPETITION JR 143 junior kids NEW Hot New 2005 Design/Graphic. Retail $350. 3 skis in 1!! 2005 Fischer COMPETITION JR. This is a new release in Fischer's 2005 line-up and it's been a huge hit. This highly sought after multi-event ski (GS race, I'm still perplexed with the fact that he still thinks it is OK to use an Industry standard that describes a line of skis to sell an individual ski. I found some information that describe the relation of side cuts which create the skis dimension which in turn form the radius or visa-versa: As a ski's length shortens (within each model), the tip width, waist width and tail width dimensions remain unchanged. This results in shorter skis having a smaller turning radius. The converse is longer skis having larger radius. Another one: Picture a ski, looking down at it from above. It has inward curves (sidecut) on either edge. Now draw an imaginary circle that extends from one of those curves outward. If your imaginary ski has a deep sidecut (very curvy) the circle you draw will be smaller. If the sidecut is shallow (straighter profile) then the circle will have to be very large. The sidecut radius is a line drawn from the ski edge to the center of the circle. Measured in meters, the sidecut radius is the size of the turn that the ski will make when set on edge.

Accomplish, 2 things I guess. He offered socks when he thought that I was an "unreasonable customer" to "make me go away and be happy". Now only now, finally, does he agree to pay for shipping and full credit because it was his mistake. My second email a month ago simply asked for merchandise equivilent to the costs of shipping and socks to keep an 03/04 wrong shaped ski. That is fair. It is also fair to give the guy an unfavorable rating and forward all of the extended dialogue to ebay in the event that other customers have a similar experience. I firmly believe that other buyers took it on the chin ate the costs, or took socks for his mistakes and let it go. Look he made me to feel stupid, a few months I would have believed what he was saying. He has now admitted that he will be more careful in the future, see below: Accomplish maybe a third thing - an answer to the question.. Offering a pair of socks when he thought I was wrong only begs the question of what would he offer now that he realizes that he is wrong. Full refund??? What happened to the socks? BTW - if the guy gives socks away so freely I know how everyone can get a pair!! rob thanks for your email. yes i understand all of that. my emails to you have been reasonable and i would continue to take this stance if the sidecut specs were not as advertised. now that you have brought to my attention that the sidecut specs on the skis you recieved are different than what was advertised (i dont think you said that before), i see that there has been an error on my part and i am ready to correct it in the manner that you suggest. i deal with a lot of customers that put unreasonable demands on me and initially thats what your inquiry looked like. if we are talking about turning radius then my listing was not inaccurate. hence my stance to this point. This guy still doesn't understand radius and it's relation to width dimensions. so I am trying to accomplish that too but apparently my listing was inaccurate in regards to the widths of the ski. i understand that these are of course related and i am sorry that it took so much dialogue to reach this understanding about the skis having different width specs than what was advertised. but we are there now. i made a mistake and i am ready to correct it. you can return the skis and bindings and i will issue a refund of the winning bid amounts plus shipping (both directions). thanks for your bringing this to my attention. i will take a closer look at this and make the necessary adjustments to my auction ads. heres the info.....

Tell me again why I should take socks for a screw up that he hasn't admitted yet? Man.... you really got to let me sell you some stuff.. I got tons of it... Accusing him? He shipped a misrepresented item, and has refused to admit it, period. Motives? I'm out to solve all the world's injustices!! It's all just fun and games.... you win some you loose some. relax! I am the only one allowed to be wound up on this one Good news is I caught a bunch of fish in the surf last weekend..

Ok let me understand what the concensus is appearing to be. I pay up front for: Fischer Junior Competition Length: 143cm. Sidecut specs: 97-65-85mm. Turn Radius: 14m (@138cm). Retail price $350. I received: Fischer Junior Competition Length: 143cm. Sidecut specs: 110-63-92mm. Turn Radius: 11m (@138cm). Retail price ??? Not available on Fischer website. I buy a set of matching Fischer bindings, these skis require them. I followed Ebay protocol, and emailed of a wrong item shipped. Guys, only now (1 month later) he offers to take AN item back. Tell me why I should ship these items back at my expense. Ebay policy? Nope can't find that. He has offered a pair of socks for my "misunderstanding", tell me why I shouldn't wait to see if he is going to offer something else now that he sees that is HIS MISTAKE. Because I am a nice guy?? Don't you think a guy with such a stellar rating would feel some obligation to make ammends? I know that I would and I have more times than I can ever count for the mistakes I have made. I don't understand "shake down".. I either want the item I ordered or a full refund of all costs (including shipping and bindings). That is not too much to ask for especially when you consider the amount of time I have devoted this whole issue of who of defining right and wrong. Why should I pay anything more than what I bargained for? Because that is ebay's policy? I don't think so. Ebay encourages seller's to work things out. It looks as though he starting to realize, he screwed up. If you really think that I should spend more money and trust to ship the skis and the bindings back and then maybe some day recieve a partial credit that I will have to fight over, then I have some Ocean front property in Arizona for you!!

BTW - I do not trust this guy to refund anything!!!!!! He can refund me Paypal first and then and only then I will ship the skis back to him as he required me to do with him.

Sorry, you are so wrong. As a consumer we have all rights of protection against false advertising, furthermore when a seller admits no wrong, and then goes on to repeatedly represent that the buyer is wrong, well..... It gets deeper... Ebay prides itself with ratings accuracy and positive experiences. I think Ebay would be very disappointed to hear that you say that's the way it is. I haven't even touched on the issue of using the Fischer website in his advertisements. This guy simply uses the system to his advantage (remember, he is the expert seller, we are not expert buyers). Had he checked what he shipped upon my original POLITE notification we would not be at this point. I complain, because he admits no wrong doing. *If I thought the socks had value, I would have accepted them. *If he had not strung me out for a month. *If he had not proclaimed his innocence because no one complains. *If he had not said this is an acceptable industry practice. *If he didn't advertise that he inspects the items personally. *If there wasn't a binding involved (that only fits these skis). *If he didn't have such a high rating. (no one can please everyone) *If he admitted that the item shipped was accidently misrepresented. I would have more of a heart. I am now in the 7th message. Here is the most recent reply the message above: i understand what you are saying. it makes sense. i am sure you can understand my position of using specs from the fischer website, and that should be adequate. in this case, perhaps not. from what you are saying, it seems like my auction ad didnt state the correct ski width specs. is this true? OK - How should I reply? 1. Why do you represent "This item has been fully inspected and I have done my best to describe it here; this auction represents all I can say about this item. It is already packed and ready to ship."? 2. BINGO, Finally Todd, you win the prize!! 3. Todd, should I report this transaction to ebay? 4. Should I say I have had a positive experience with you? 5. Todd, how should my time be compensated? As the last note the skis he shipped me do not exist in any of the Fischer Website information.

To those of you who are following and not bored with my tirade this is the reply to my simple question. My subsequent reply is astericked. "What is the turning radius of the skis you sent me?" He replied: i am not sure. ******Check with Fischer and see what they state the radius is, then you will see where I am coming from. this number was not stated in the auction ad. if this information was important to you, then you would have needed to acquire this information before bidding. *******I am not sure I understand this statement - you are asking me to verify what was printed on the ski? Todd, then why list those dimensions at all? Why not list the dimensions printed on this individual ski?. I have not had a problem like this with you before, keep in mind I have bought 2 other pairs of Fischer Skis and bindings from you. (not to name other skis) I understand radius dimensioning very well. (The previous Fischer skis were not the specific ski radius as advertised either, but they were consistent with the "industry standard" these are not.) i must admit that i am a little concerned about your stance on this. ********Happy to help, anyone who sells as many skis as you do should know these type of technical specifications. after reviewing the auction ad and our email correspondence, it would seem that you think i misstated the sidecut radius of the skis in the auction ad. this is simply not true. *********It is true, radius side cuts increase as the ski lengthens provided the widths are held consistent The 143 and the 138 are the same width. the 143cm should be about r15m based on your ad. Radius sidecuts go UP as the ski lenthens. i stated that the sidecut radius of this model ski in the 138cm size is 14. **********Agreed, and the radius of the 143 will be greater than 14 provided the 143 and 138 are the same widths which is how Fischer advertises on their website. this is true and this is the industry standard way of stating sidecuts. *********You are half correct. The industry standard specifies a line of skis this way, not individual skis. the sidecut for the 143cm ski was never stated and would be open for the buyers interpretation or for them to acquire that specific information if they see fit. *********I did interperet and found that the ski would have a radius greater than 14, which is what I was looking for. i feel strongly that my auction ad was accurate and complete and with specs stated in the same manner as other sellers. *********Todd, then please remove your BS about personally inspecting the item and identifying it to the best of your ability. Is that how Ebay does things, reconsider that comment, pleeeeease. You are a trusted 20k plus seller. i also feel strongly that my handling of your email inquiries has been fair. *********Very very slow and initially impersonal, but fair. Thank you. if you need to return this item i will still allow you to do so (returns instructions text below). if you would like to keep it, i would offer some socks (please respond to my socks text from previous emails). *********todd I believe I had said that I wanted a particular item other than a pair of socks to come to a positive resolution. Why no exchanges, Todd? I am not interested in picking up more costs like shipping charges, unless you are picking up the tab. Please keep in mind that I bought a pair of matching bindings for these skis from you. It wasn't just the cost of the skis. I await to hear an answer. Thanks for your email. To begin the return/refund process (sorry, no exchanges), please REPLY to this email stating: 1) the reason you are returning your item. 2) your preference of paypal or check for the refund of the winning bid amount(plus shipping costs if I have made an error in this transaction). please include your address accordingly for this refund. 3) the item number and name of the item being returned. 4) your name and zip code as it will appear on the returned package. Please then return the item in the SAME CONDITION as recieved (there is no need to include a note with the package) and send to: Todd Denlinger po box 681500 park city ut 84068 I look forward to issuing your refund upon reciept of the returned item(please note--due to warehouse logistics, this may take up to 14 days after receipt). BTW if there are any math majors here the radius can be figured out given the the width dimensions of 97-65-85 (that is what is on the ad) I am heading over to my ski shop this afternoon with the other Fischer is hand to compare side by side.

He is taking a higher tha all-mighty stance that he has done no wrong. That is what is continuing to irk me, the part about selling 8,000 pairs really gets my goat, so he screwed up once.. After all he says that he inspects each item personally - quote, unquote. BullSH** BTW- the dimensions are as he stated, (now I wonder, are they the dimension for the 138 or the 143 or all of them in that series?) I know the answer.... I just replied asking just what radius ski did you send me? as if I was asking the question before the sale. He might as well mistate the length or the width.... Jeff - you are correct and so is the industry standard for stating turning radii, when the width dimensions are the same on different length skis the radius changes. The 143 should have a greater than 14 m sidecut. Need? no, Want? yes! Ridge has 2 pair of fischer World Cups - 138 r10 and 143 r11 - both of which are the same width tip, waist and tail. BTW - I would imagine that the 148 is up around r12. This particular pair was/is another experiment with turning radii. Which is why I am pissed. We already have that exact set. I agree it is mostly the skier along with a lot of little other things..

Ok guys and gals, I need a reality check. This is the response that I recieved tonight from this seller. Your opinions count.. This is what he wrote: sorry again for any misunderstanding. my last email to you stated my feelings on this. the ad clearly stated "Turn Radius: 14m (@138cm). " as i mentioned, this is the industry standard way of stating ski radius. if this was not enough information for you and the specific radius of this ski in the 143cm size was important to you, then you should have not bid until you had verified that information. i have sold approximately 8,000 skis with the radius stated in this fashion. i have never had this problem before. i would encourage you to take a look at the way other websites advertise ski specs. i have already stated this and i have also offered a free pair of socks to help make up for any misunderstanding. thanks for your cooperation and understanding, todd

Valid point, except I don't think we are at that point. In my original notification,I asked "how do we resolve the shipping error"? In his only reply, he only offered socks nothing more (the other 2 replies were auto generated "out of office" and a FAQ. I don't think it is my place to offer to ship them back since he says it is me who is misunderstanding what I ordered. If I send them back without his offering to take them back, given the correspondence to date then I would be responsible for all shipping costs. I am not interested in spending anymore for shipping and trusting that this will be resolved. I already put my best foot forward by paying for a item, trusting that I would recieve it as ordered. Forget the cardboard, tape, packing, where do I mail, do I get insurance too, hassle with travel backand forth. (I had the skis dropped off at my ski shop a half hour away.) I have lots of skis that have value for all different situations, this pair could just be added to the pile, if I get them at a cost that makes it reasonable to keep them.

Time to start a poll....

naaaaaa, that would be too easy... BTW it is now thursday and there is nothng from them in my inbox.. here we go!!!!

Funny, that the geographical workplace would affect how a person deals with a vendor, while its true that we are all victims of our enviroment. I think that the kids sympathy is born more out of the simple fact that they have not had their own hard earned money ripped off enough times. I have a long history of very intimate dealings with affluential couples making the largest most stressful decisions in their lives. I work behind the scenes now..

Go to http://www.smileycentral.com for a bazillion of them things. You should grab all the winter, skiing, rollerblading, skateboarding one you can find.

Going big is only limited by gravity..

I didn't contact him to ask what the actual turn radius was on the 143cm ski since I knew it would be greater on the longer ski. Lesson learned for the future, always ask for verification of the information printed on the ski. I had a something sort of similar happen with Atomic skis. Since we have named a name, yep snowdeals has been a great source for me too, OVERALL I am very happy with them. I am reasonably happy with the cost of the purchase. It's the principal of misrepresentation that I am hung up on. If this isn't resolved to my liking.... I like the idea of shipping something slightly different back... I might just do that... Hmmmm..... I have a set of Fischer 138cm - R10 I wonder how they will respond if they notice? I can hear my response now..... ""Oh! I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I was just shipping wrong stuff like everyone else does" "just ask around and check other websites, you will see that this is a industry standard "" "How about I send you a pair of socks and we call it even" Better yet, I will just cut and paste his message right back to him and switch the names around.. LMAO!!!! todd, thanks for your email and sorry about any misunderstanding about the sidecut. i have stated the sidecut for these skis in accordance with the industry standard. you will see that the ad clearly states that this is the sidecut for this ski in the 138cm length. this is the standard way of stating sidecut for a specific ski model. to verify that, please go to the fischer website and also view other sellers ads on ebay or on other online sites (evogear.com or backcountry.com for example). sorry again for any misunderstanding. please reply here..... Thanks for your email. I am sorry about this situation. As a concession, I would be willing to send you a NEW pair of Mosox (made by Fox River) mid-weight ski or snowboard socks. These are some of the nicest socks you can find for skiing or riding. With a retail price of $24.99, they feature the latest and greatest in materials and design. I have used them and I can assure you, they will make your next day on the hill a more pleasurable experience. If this is satisfactory, then simply reply to this email with: 1)your preference of the SKI sock or SNOWBOARD sock 2)your size of Med (mens sz. 5-8.5/womens sz. 6.5-10), Lg (mens sz. 9-12/womens sz. 10.5-12), or XL (mens sz. 13-15) 3)your address for standard mail USPS delivery I hope this helps make things right. Sincerely, Rob Larick

Gotcha, that was what I was trying to say too!!

there is a lot of debate about the foam not holding up (loosing its spring), nothing proven that I have read since there doesn't seem to be widely available machines or standards to measure flex. I snapped a wore out set of skis right about at the time I was thing they were wore out in moguls out west. they were a straight pair of K-2 with some type of foam inside that probably had 50 days on them -- but then that was 15 years ago..

So is that why I am writing so mcuh hate mail recently? There is still freakin snow on the slopes at CB!!

Skis are very personal.. I know specific set of skis that are crappy IMO that someone really close to me really loves. I think they are great!!! for him....

I already paid for them, with his responses so far, there IS NO WAY i would ship them back and trust that he will give me my money back, let alone pay for the shipping, since he offered socks for me to keep them, it doesn't sound like he wants them either. There are bindings in all this mess too.

Ah yep... you would think that an 20,000 ebay seller from Park City Utah would be a little more careful with such an obvious mistake. OR at minimum at least recognize that and offer something other than a pair of socks.

I wouldn't call it an honest mistake, he represents that he inspected the item, if he did then he should have caught this obvious mistake. He then goes on to justifiy that what he shipped is correct because the information came from the Fischer website using industry standards. Wrong again. he still didn't look at the ski he shipped. How would you feel if you ordered a board 140cm and reiceived one 110cm long? Well I ordered 14m sidecut and recieved an 11m, plain and simple. I guess at the start of this thread I should have made it clear that i sent an email with in 2 days of reiceving the skis, notifying and politely asking how do we resolve? It took a week to get a reply and the reply I got was an FAQ cut and pasted. I curtly and professionally replied to that, and expressed that my question was not answered by his FAQ, to which the following week he finally replied, asking me to be patient until May 1st when he would be "back in town" and could "look into it". I then received on May 2nd his BS about what other websites list, and that I was misunderstanding, then came the a cut and pasted caveat of a free pair of socks to make things right. When I immediately replied to that, I got another auto generated reply that he will be answering emails this thursday since he will be out of town. What irks me, is that he admits no wrong. doesn't offer to take the item back and has a 99.8 approval rating. Takes over 3 weeks to offer to resolve a "wrong item shipped" with a pair of socks. I have bought numerous items from him, half of them were "buy it now" items. Well guess what? Had he replied with a reasonable answer in the first week or the second or the third I would not be at this point. I am "reamimg" because he obviously does make things right to keep his approval rating up and my patience is gone. Ebay has good mechansims to resolve misrepresentations to which I have yet to invoke. Antibiotics won't fix this festering wound, it's time to cauterize the gangrene that is growing. You are absolutely correct, how the issue gets corrected is how he will get my approval. It's simple, the longer he takes, the higher his cost will be to resolve this. There are several options that ebay lists for sellers to resolve selling misrepresented items, taking the original item back is not on the list. crediting and sending the correct item is. My last counteroffer to resolve the dispute would cost him less than crediting or sending the correct item. I am being more than fair by ebay standards that list resolutions for shipping misrepresented items. Also this thread is a good place for everyone to learn as I am learning about technical specifications on skis. Also to learn about Ebay disputes, a place for me to document the facts and my thoughts. also a place to practice my typing and a fairwarning to never ship me something other than what I paid for Did anyone notice that we under 20 million seconds left until winter? My how time flies when your having fun..

Yep that helps.. the representation was: Length: 143cm. Sidecut specs: 97-65-85mm. Turn Radius: 14m (@138cm). Retail price $350. I recieved the same tip, waist, tail dimension on the 143cm, to use your example, the radius should have been larger not smaller. I received a ski stamped 11m then he tried to tell me that it this was typical to check around. I checked and am still checking All I want, is for it to be made "right" I found this excerpt at the bottom of the listing... yeah he did everything but check what was written on the ski!!! This item has been fully inspected and I have done my best to describe it here; this auction represents all I can say about this item. It is already packed and ready to ship. You have come to the right place for the best GEAR, PRICES, AND SERVICE. I look forward to a successful auction transaction with you and don't forget to tell your friends!!! Even worse now that I revisted the Fischer website in the Junior race skis section, they have a mouse over function that allows you to clearly read the dimensions of the ski - it says R14 138cm