trackbiker

That's great news. I like the Northface, but it's nice to have the option to take a few long runs now and then.

I'll be in VT this weekend.

I'm talking about all of the poachers who will attemp to poach those resorts combined will cost alot more than $5K. But it will only cost Burton $5,000.00. They got many times that in marketing already, and they haven't even paid the $5K yet! It's a great marketing ploy! I'd love to meet the guy who came up with it! Check out the price of a ticket at those resorts. Deer Valley is $79.00. Just one boarder and one camera person are going to pay $148.00 for one run! Now multiply that times all the people who are going to try it at all 4 resorts. I'll guarantee you that each resort makes more than $5,000.00 each from this marketing campaign. And the fools paying for the tickets are giving Burton very, very cheap marketing. Why don't you ask if Burton will pay for your tickets, even if you don't win? I think we all know the answer to that one! Go ahead fools; Poach all you want. At all 4 resorts. Burton makes money. The resorts make money. You lose money. Unless of course you're the one person who wins. Remember, it's only one $5K, no matter how many people it takes to make the video. How much you wanna bet it will be a video with more than 2 people? And the net result? The resorts will only be more convinced to not allow boarders. But Burton got their free marketing. Who's head should the $ signs be on now?

IIRC Blue also pays someone to cut their halfpipe. Don't know all the details, but I have read that pipe cutting is a difficult task. Part art and part science. Snow conditions vary due to temps and humidity from top to bottom as it's being made, compaction occures towards the bottom, voids in the snow can occur due to wind, compaction, or melting. Maybe Planet or a leasing company is buying the Zaugg? They could then truck it to different areas that they serve? Much more efficient use of capital $ for how often it would be used. Where are the trails names on Sno's site? Didn't see them on there tonight, but maybe missed it.

No matter how you feel about it, that's a great way insure that those resorts won't allow boarders anytime soon, and will only serve to reinforce those resorts reasons for the ban. That's especially true about the way the riders were purposely brushing the people on the Deer Valley video. The $$$ signs on the guys head who was explaining in a nice way why they didn't allow boarders, should be on Jake Burton's head. Burton is losing market share big time, and this is all about getting Burton an image at a really good price. ($5,000.00? It will cost all the poachers combined alot more than that! And give Burton virtually free marketing at the poachers expense! ) Go ahead all you wannabe poachers. Pay for a full price ticket at one of those resorts for one run. The resorts and Jake Burton will be laughing all the way to the bank!

Thanks for the pics! Elk always gets their lighted trails open first. Hopefully, the weather event this weekend will be all snow for Elk and give them a jump start on the season.

ski, good points on the late opening. While the weather was bad for everyone last year, Sno didn't open until mid January. That had to put a serious damper on the cash flow. You are right about the Christmas revenues. While Pres. Day and MLK are the busiest weekends, Christmas is the equivalent of about 5 normal weekends in a 10 day period. Also, you did talk me into checking out Montage. I was there the only day that they ran Long Haul that season. When the employee was posting a while back he did mention something about new lights on a few trails but didn't give any details. While a whole new lighting system would be nice, a few more strategically place lights to eliminate dark spots would make things much better at a relatively low cost/benefit ratio. It was also mentioned that the lifts had the drives overhauled. You always mention Long Haul as being a problem. That lift only stopped once for a short time while I was on it last year. Funny thing was, the Phoebe was down for about a 1/2 hr. one time I was there. That is the lift that has taken a beating because it has been the workhorse for years while the Long Haul sat idle. It actually ran slower than Long Haul. I timed them and calculated the speeds. Sno is doing a hell of a lot. None of us know all the logistics, scheduling, nor money involved. Nor would any of us do the same things in the same order as far as improvements. Plus, It's really easy to spend someone else's money! Seems like the park has been a focus and the jibbers are happy. I'm a skier. I like to hit a jump in the park now and then when I know I'm not going to get in anyone's way, but as a skier, I have different priorities. Not "right or wrong"; just different. I also know "Rome wasn't built in a day" and they have a hell of a lot going on besides winter stuff with the water park and everything. It's great to see all of the impovements. I just hope the return is there in the long run. Just for the record, the Elk vs. Sno thing is a non issue. They are two different animals and will only compliment each other. That's why Elk's owner was at the meeting supporting the sale last year. Having two complimentary ski areas will only draw more skiers and riders overall to NE PA. Does anyone know if they built the Tubing lodge? That would improve things greatly in the lodge by getting all of the parents and grandparents who are hogging tables all day out of the lodge.

ski, When I first moved back to the area several years ago, I looked at a ski report and IIRC my first post on this forum was, everyone else was 100% open, what's up with Montage? You convinced me to try it and I skied there twice that year after driving by on the way to Elk and Greek Peak for years because the layout never really interested me. Based on those visits and your impressions, I saw the potential. The comments about needing snowmaking being a "given" was due to the fact that they were only 1/3 open when everyone else was 100% open because they didn't have the snowmaking capacity due to rusted out piping, broken snow guns, whatever. They obviously had the water. Regardless, it was obvious that any new owner had to upgrade the snowmaking capacity BEFORE they did anything else. That was the "given". And Sno did a great job. They installed the best snowguns and the conditions were terrific last season. About the 7 new trails: They revised their website, but it did originally say there would be 7 new trails for THIS season. Regardless of symantics, where do you think the reporter got that information? "Dude, they only cut a blue square down half the mountain. What should they get up to first class? The snowmaking? The pipe? The rails? The race course? The lodge? The summer park? The restaurant?"- ski How about the Lighting and the Lifts? Scranton and the surrounding area have one of the oldest average ages of anywhere in the country. It is a depressed area. Do you think that people from Philly and Jersey are going to drive the extra miles past Camelback and Blue with 2 HS Lifts each, and past "Big Boulder Park" to go to Sno? I don't have a problem with the Long Haul Lift other than getting it up to design speed and actually running it more often to take advantage of the advertised vertical. But how many people who are used to the HS Lifts at Blue and Camelback are going to come back to Sno because of a new deck on the lodge, slow lifts, and bad lighting? "But there is an old saying...."How do you end up with a $1million in the ski business? Start with $10million" It's great that they are trying to maximize an asset that only provides revenue for 3 months out of the year. They are building a great park. But how much money do the jibbers have? Are they paying $3.00 for a locker? Eating on the new deck? I look forward to skiing Sno a lot this season. The snowmaking is the best in PA. It still won't be crowded even on holiday weekends because they don't have HS Lifts. Blue and Camelback are skied off by 11:00am on weekends. Sno still has great conditions on Sunday nights. I'll enjoy it while it lasts, BUT they still have to make money to pay for all that stuff. I wish them success, and will still ski there a few times per year, but if it ever gets too crowded, I'll drive on by to Elk or Greek Peak, like I used to do.

If you look at a topographical map of that area, the terrain is very steep and would require some serious regrading, cut around the side of the mountain to get a blue trail to the bottom. The problem with the marketing director's statement is that when they have only ONE new, unlit trail this year, no one will believe them when they do have a high speed lift and six more trails next year. "Never promise more than you can deliver." People keep saying that they "listen to the customer". Maybe they listen to the jibbers, because that seems like where all the real improvements are going. (And we all know how much money they have to spend!) The Long Haul hardly ran at all last season. Why would you need 7 new trails over there when you didn't service the 2 you had last season? IMHO, they would be better off getting a High Speed lift and lighting on the trails they have before expanding. The new snowmaking was great, but it was also a given because there really was none there. Buts it's not the only thing required for a quality experience. They should get what they have up to first class before expanding. Hey, before you through out the "hater" icon; They've done a hell of a lot in a short period of time. But there is an old saying...."How do you end up with a $1million in the ski business? Start with $10million!

I usually like to ski Greek once or twice a year. But their lift tickets are now $56.00 for anyone 14 or over That's weekend and weekdays I know they have good season pass rates for the locals, but those rates are rediculous for what they offer. If anyone thinks Elk's lifts are slow, they haven't been to Greek Peak! That #2 Lift is one of the oldest operating lifts in the country! The lodge hasn't had an upgrade in 20 years, and the parking lot is a potholed mess. I like the mountain, but at those prices I'll go to Plattekill or Elk, thank you. Ski4Food, do they offer any local discounts?

There's no way they're getting any of those trails on the map they showed at their presentation to the bottom of the mountain without some serious blasting and grading. And that takes a lot of time and permitting. Isn't that resevoir at the bottom a drinking water supply? I would think that they would do the new trails when they install a new lift. Hopefully for next season.

While most people on this forum would find Spring Mtn. boring after about 2 runs, they do a great job with what they have. Thanks to the Buckman family of the Buckman ski shops shops for rescueing the mountain from the "lost" ski areas list, Spring Mountain is still the closest ski area to Philly and it's suburbs. I learned to ski there on a rope tow. My daughter learned to ski there. My niece and nephew learned to board there, as well as many other people from the Philly area. It's definitely worth at least a night visit if for nothing else but to support the sport of skiing and snowboarding and to keep a "feeder" hill alive.

They took the best blue trail on the mountain and made it into a giant terrain park. IMHO the skiers lost more than the jibbers gained.

Does this trail end at the mid-mountain crossover or will it go to the bottom? Will there be lights and snowmaking on this trail this year? Will there be any other new trails this year, or is the cutting just for realigning around the water park features?

He may even buy a Sno season pass just so he can go to the cocktail party!

Good call, the kid at Hunter realized his mistake, took responsibility for his actions, and apologized. The kid at BB shouldn't have even been on the slope, and his father is not doing him any favors. Maybe you should have given him a copy of the Responsibility Code. If it were my kid, you wouldn't have had to yell at him, I would have done it first after making sure your daughter was OK and that he had apologized. I would have asked that dumb-ass father why he wasn't with his kid, why he even let his kid on the slope without the most basic of skills, "the ability to stop", and was he such a cheap bastard that he wouldn't pay for a lesson for the kid?

November 26th at 6:36pm

GSS did a great job explaining the reasons. One other reason is that the southern Appalachians are more susceptible to convective cooling when the sun goes down. Convective cooling works like airconditioning. As the sun goes down the warm air rises up the mountain, expands and cools. While it can get colder in the southern Apps at night, conversely it generally then gets warmer again than the northern Apps during the day. That's one of the reasons why the top of Mt. Washington, NH at 6288' is above tree line, while Mt. Mitchell, NC at 6684' is not above tree line. Plus the bases of those areas in NC are at 4000'+, while the peaks of most NE resorts aren't that high.

Didn't see anything about snowmaking on their website. Temp on the site said 35F. Did you get an email about this?

elkskibum: Thanks for the summary. It's nice having imput from someone who works at an area.

Skierdaddy is right; If you're looking for terrain parks and/or require High Speed Lifts, Elk is not for you. The comparison to VT skiing that is often missed is that Elk is almost all Fall Line skiing with the exceptions of Tioga and Kickapoo. Elk is simply blessed with the best Terrain in PA. (Yes, I've skied Blue Knob.) While I'm sure that if they had the money, Elk would likely install two HS Quads yesterday, they have a loyal nitche following, and run a first class operation. While Sno may take some ticket sales in the short run out of curiousity, the typical Elk skier is not interested in terrain parks nor the biggest and baddest half-pipe in PA. Plus the top of Sno is flat. The bottom is steep. Any new top-to-bottom trails will require some serious blasting and still won't have the continous pitch of Elk. While I am optimistic about Sno, and wish them success, as a business person I have concerns about them long term. They are owned by lawyers, who charge the same fees whether they graduated at the top or bottom of their class. (Did you ever ask yours where he was in the class?) You can always "create" more billable hours; you can't create more skiers. Without getting into too many market details, with the money they are spending for a limited market, I would take the bet that 5 yrs. from now Elk will still be under the same management and Sno will be owned by Peak Resorts or Snowtime.

All of the improvements sound great. On the Sno Improvements thread, the #1 improvement listed by Sno's customer's was a New HS Lift. #2 was Better Lighting. Since there will be no HS Lift this year, I really wish that they would move Better Lighting up the priority list. For night skiers, new trails are nice, but it would be nicer to be able to see on the trails that they already have. Lighting would also improve their ability to attract the school clubs that ski at night. Sno Improvements Survey Sno never responded to my email with a link to the survey results. So I don't know if they are really listening to their customers or just doing what they want.

Wouldn't you get your vertical just as fast on a HS Quad? Do they even load 6 people/chair on weekend mornings? I've never seen that lift filled on a consistent basis. Usually 2 or 3 people/chair.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of snowmaking they can get on any new trails. Do you think they will use the old portable guns from the Montage days? Can anyone get up there to see where they are actually cutting the trails? Or is it really just the new snow tubing area?

What skierdaddy and ski said. You have to realize that the Ski Magazine survey is not a scientific nor a statistical survey. It's simply a survey of their readers. Holliday Valley, NY always ranks high in the survey. All 650 vertical feet of it. But they get half a million skier visits per year from people from western PA & NY, northeast Ohio, and from across the border in Canada. That's a lot of votes. But I bet out of those 500,000 people, less than 2% have skied Jay Peak. In reality, about the only thing you can take from the survey is that a ranked area does a better job in the category they ranked high in than other ski areas in their region. Because most of the people doing the voting don't ski anywhere else on a regular basis. People aren't going to vote for areas they have never skied, even if they are better areas, because they have no experience with them. By the way, Blue Mtn. ranked high in the east on lifts; it's a shame they won't have any new trails this year to help their downhill capacity match their uphill capacity. Elks lifts may be "slow" compared to HS lifts, but isn't the downhill part of the trip the most important, and the reason we are all there in the first place?