22 FOOT PIPE

[fleaguy]

I was at Sno last night and was amazed at the amount of snow the mountain has made for the pipe. Has anyone ever seen that amount of snow in the Pocono's before? I know in my 26 years of skiiing...I haven't. One side of the pipe is maybe 2/3's done and the other mabe 1/3. There are three large groomers and one small one working the snow non-stop. That thing is going to be HUGE! With two more weeks before the "Revolution Tour"...I think they're doing an excellent job. Hats off to the grooming and snowmaking crews. I can't imagine the hours and hours put into this so far. I also noticed the 12-15 foot mound of snow they've stock-piled over by the Shuttle lift for future use. Keep up the good work!

[toast21602]

somebody PLEASE take pictures of the progress. this is something i def. want to see.

[fleaguy]

Ski...bring your camera up this weekend and take some pics for toast!

[Ski]

Ski...bring your camera up this weekend and take some pics for toast!

Yeah, I'll post some pics Sat. when we get home.

[toast21602]

Yeah, I'll post some pics Sat. when we get home.

 

awesome. thanks.

[bigdaddyk]

somebody PLEASE take pictures of the progress. this is something i def. want to see.

 

http://www.paskiandride.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10966

[fleaguy]

hey thanks Bigdaddy! Yea, it's hard to get a perspective on how big it really is. However, if you see the telephone pole, and notice how the snow pile towers over it, it gives an idea. The snow cat in the middle of the tube would have been neat!

All I know, it's way too big for me to try! (Old age!!)

[Boarder1x9]

maybe grab some pics of the park as well, I'm interested to see what they have going on up there.

[Justin]

I honestly believe this 22 footer is so excessive. It'll probably only be rideable a few days out of the year, it needs to be cut daily. Not to mention fresh snow needs to be accumulated on the walls or the thing will turn into a giant icy mess like Blue is sometimes (but when they blow and recut it, it's amazing).

[toast21602]

I honestly believe this 22 footer is so excessive. It'll probably only be rideable a few days out of the year, it needs to be cut daily. Not to mention fresh snow needs to be accumulated on the walls or the thing will turn into a giant icy mess like Blue is sometimes (but when they blow and recut it, it's amazing).

 

dude. you cant tell me that you wouldnt want your local mountain to have a 22' pipe. i know i would. there is nothing excessive about it. other mountains have 18' pipes and people go there to ride them. thats what Sno is hoping for and thats what will happen. i know i'll go there. there is a huge difference in temperature between Sno and Blue that makes Blue's pipe the icy mess that it is sometimes.

[Justin]

dude. you cant tell me that you wouldnt want your local mountain to have a 22' pipe. i know i would. there is nothing excessive about it. other mountains have 18' pipes and people go there to ride them. thats what Sno is hoping for and thats what will happen. i know i'll go there. there is a huge difference in temperature between Sno and Blue that makes Blue's pipe the icy mess that it is sometimes.

True....

 

If Blue had a 22' pipe I'd probably be scared shitless of it

[toast21602]

True....

 

If Blue had a 22' pipe I'd probably be scared shitless of it

 

i will be scary as hell. but all the pipes that i have ever ridden; the bigger, the better, the easier... if it is well maintained.

[DHarrisburg]

dude. you cant tell me that you wouldnt want your local mountain to have a 22' pipe. i know i would.

 

Which would you rather have; 30 new well-built rails and boxes that are kept in pristine condition every single day or a 22' pipe?

[toast21602]

Which would you rather have; 30 new well-built rails and boxes that are kept in pristine condition every single day or a 22' pipe?

 

i dont know what that has to do with anything, but i'll take the rails if they were kept pristine...

 

it would be nice if both pipe and rails were kept pristine.

[DHarrisburg]

i dont know what that has to do with anything, but i'll take the rails if they were kept pristine...

 

it would be nice if both pipe and rails were kept pristine.

 

I ask because I've been told by the head of park staff at Bear (in CA) that it costs them somewhere around a million dollars to build and maintain an 18' pipe. Granted their season is usually runs a little longer into the spring than any NEPA resort, but the fact remains that pipes are a really good way to spend a ton of money. Personally I think that if a mountain can find room in the park budget for a 22' pipe then there is absolutely no reason that they can't spend even a fraction of that on rails and jumps, features that have been proven time and time again as being more popular than a halfpipe. Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have a 22' pipe that is cut three times a week and kept in good condition but the reality is that doing so is extremely hard in a NEPA environment and would cost huge amounts of money.

[toast21602]

I ask because I've been told by the head of park staff at Bear (in CA) that it costs them somewhere around a million dollars to build and maintain an 18' pipe. Granted their season is usually runs a little longer into the spring than any NEPA resort, but the fact remains that pipes are a really good way to spend a ton of money. Personally I think that if a mountain can find room in the park budget for a 22' pipe then there is absolutely no reason that they can't spend even a fraction of that on rails and jumps, features that have been proven time and time again as being more popular than a halfpipe. Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have a 22' pipe that is cut three times a week and kept in good condition but the reality is that doing so is extremely hard in a NEPA environment and would cost huge amounts of money.

 

i hear ya. i'm not against having a 22' pipe at all in NEPA. i want to see it happen more than anything and i wish it was closer to home. i agree with you though, for the most part.

[Ski]

I ask because I've been told by the head of park staff at Bear (in CA) that it costs them somewhere around a million dollars to build and maintain an 18' pipe. Granted their season is usually runs a little longer into the spring than any NEPA resort, but the fact remains that pipes are a really good way to spend a ton of money. Personally I think that if a mountain can find room in the park budget for a 22' pipe then there is absolutely no reason that they can't spend even a fraction of that on rails and jumps, features that have been proven time and time again as being more popular than a halfpipe. Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have a 22' pipe that is cut three times a week and kept in good condition but the reality is that doing so is extremely hard in a NEPA environment and would cost huge amounts of money.

 

Didn't Sno buy a crapload of rails at the beginning of the season? And I'm pretty sure the huge jumps are still there. In fact, it looked incredibly dangerous that Spike was open while the pipe was being worked on by three cats.

 

Craig from CB doesn't even want to read PASR, let alone participate, because CB gets beat on endlessly for shutting down lifts when it isn't cost effective. I've started to read bitching about the new owner of Blue and how they haven't been blowing snow like they used to because she doesn't want to spend the money.

 

But when it comes to Sno, suddenly everyone is worried about a ski area spending money? What the fuck is that all about?

 

No, really, why is it suddenly a bad thing that a Pocono ski area throws a million bucks worth of rails, snow, and an Olympic halfpipe at park rats? Jesus, it's like my kid is playing opposite day and saying "I don't want ice cream".

 

I've heard that the new quad will come when skier visits warrant knocking three minutes off the ride to the top. Jeez, I've skied every weekend at Sno this year and haven't encountered a lift line.

 

So what's the beef? What's really behind the hate for a ski area suddenly spending like a drunken Doug?

[Melissa]

Didn't Sno buy a crapload of rails at the beginning of the season? And I'm pretty sure the huge jumps are still there. In fact, it looked incredibly dangerous that Spike was open while the pipe was being worked on by three cats.

 

Craig from CB doesn't even want to read PASR, let alone participate, because CB gets beat on endlessly for shutting down lifts when it isn't cost effective. I've started to read bitching about the new owner of Blue and how they haven't been blowing snow like they used to because she doesn't want to spend the money.

 

But when it comes to Sno, suddenly everyone is worried about a ski area spending money? What the fuck is that all about?

 

No, really, why is it suddenly a bad thing that a Pocono ski area throws a million bucks worth of rails, snow, and an Olympic halfpipe at park rats? Jesus, it's like my kid is playing opposite day and saying "I don't want ice cream".

 

I've heard that the new quad will come when skier visits warrant knocking three minutes off the ride to the top. Jeez, I've skied every weekend at Sno this year and haven't encountered a lift line.

 

So what's the beef? What's really behind the hate for a ski area suddenly spending like a drunken Doug?

 

I totally agree with Ski here. It seems like people have really been acting like Negative Nellies and Debbie Downers lately (though not everyone). Who the hell cares if Sno loses money on the pipe? If they want to spend the money for it, so be it. Maybe it will turn out well and attract lots of people. Maybe it won't, and maybe Sno will choose to scale it down or eliminate it. Either way, the Sno management is in it for at least 10 years (I think), and per the sales contract, they have to invest a certain amount of money into the resort (like 10-15 million dollars I think). They might as well spend some of that on some stuff that could turn out really cool.

 

In addition, I'd like to point out that they aren't going to pull out just because they lose money for a few years. LOTS of people LOVE to invest in entities that lose money b/c you can reduce your federal income tax liabilty each year up to the amount you have invested in the venture, and you can do this I think for up to 5 years. So, even if Sno loses money right now, it isn't a big deal.

 

It kind of seems like the only complaints about Sno are (1) the lifts (which are slow, but really, the demand is not there for anything faster) and (2) things that Sno is spending money on. It IS kind of silly to complain about a ski resort spending money! It is great that we have this forum to share our thoughts about the choices that ski resorts such as Sno make, however, we really ought to limit the useless debate--no one here makes decisions at Sno (though the message boards might be read by management). If you care or feel strongly about something, just give Sno a call! They WANT people to care and visit their resort, and I guarentee you that they'd love to hear your comments.

[Glenn]

So what's the beef? What's really behind the hate for a ski area suddenly spending like a drunken Doug?

 

Rhetorical question... Are you at all concerned about the long term success of Sno? Rather than 15 new rail/jump features and a new 22' foot halfpipe most of us would like to believe 45 new rail/jump features would bring in way more people. I think most people here would love to get in a 22' pipe, especially in the poconos (well I'd rather hit one in the front range, but you get the idea). The point is... high speed lifts bring people to mountains as do rails and jumps.

 

You've said over and over than people aren't at Sno, which basically means people aren't buying tickets. The things that will get people to buy tickets they have ignored until people will buy tickets, in favor of something only a few will enjoy.

 

No hate, it's just for a brand new mountain, that needs to make money, spending like a drunken Doug on things that likely won't make money seems a bit odd. You know this already but it's not that hardcore skiers/riders that make the mountains money, especially in the Scranton area where no one skis.

[Melissa]

No hate, it's just for a brand new mountain, that needs to make money, spending like a drunken Doug on things that likely won't make money seems a bit odd.

 

Glenn, part of my point was just that for the first 5 years, Sno does NOT need to make money. After that then they need to turn a profit! Right now, it seems like Sno's plan is to sink money into the resort (per the terms of their sales contract) and take the losses as income tax breaks for the investors personally. However, after five years, they def. need to be making money!

 

The point is... high speed lifts bring people to mountains as do rails and jumps.

 

Also, if people really feel this way, then they should CALL Sno and tell them! Glenn, I realize that you don't live around here anymore and thus will probably not call Sno since you won't be visiting it anytime soon, but other people, who WOULD visit it should def. share their opinion!

[Dan-]

Didn't Sno buy a crapload of rails at the beginning of the season? And I'm pretty sure the huge jumps are still there. In fact, it looked incredibly dangerous that Spike was open while the pipe was being worked on by three cats.

 

Craig from CB doesn't even want to read PASR, let alone participate, because CB gets beat on endlessly for shutting down lifts when it isn't cost effective. I've started to read bitching about the new owner of Blue and how they haven't been blowing snow like they used to because she doesn't want to spend the money.

 

But when it comes to Sno, suddenly everyone is worried about a ski area spending money? What the fuck is that all about?

 

No, really, why is it suddenly a bad thing that a Pocono ski area throws a million bucks worth of rails, snow, and an Olympic halfpipe at park rats? Jesus, it's like my kid is playing opposite day and saying "I don't want ice cream".

 

I've heard that the new quad will come when skier visits warrant knocking three minutes off the ride to the top. Jeez, I've skied every weekend at Sno this year and haven't encountered a lift line.

 

So what's the beef? What's really behind the hate for a ski area suddenly spending like a drunken Doug?

 

 

Uh.. Spend money on something that can be used for MAYBE 1 month out of the season. (that pipe is not even close to being ready. Season ends in a month to month and a half) Or drop more money on something that can be used for the entire season.. Whats more worth it?

 

The blue argument is kind of not relavent. People are bitching because blue's conditions for the most part BLOW. If they actually blew snow conditions would greatly improve over the icy mess that is normally blue mountain. That is why people are bitching there.

[Ski]

Rhetorical question... Are you at all concerned about the long term success of Sno? Rather than 15 new rail/jump features and a new 22' foot halfpipe most of us would like to believe 45 new rail/jump features would bring in way more people. I think most people here would love to get in a 22' pipe, especially in the poconos (well I'd rather hit one in the front range, but you get the idea). The point is... high speed lifts bring people to mountains as do rails and jumps.

 

You've said over and over than people aren't at Sno, which basically means people aren't buying tickets. The things that will get people to buy tickets they have ignored until people will buy tickets, in favor of something only a few will enjoy.

 

No hate, it's just for a brand new mountain, that needs to make money, spending like a drunken Doug on things that likely won't make money seems a bit odd. You know this already but it's not that hardcore skiers/riders that make the mountains money, especially in the Scranton area where no one skis.

 

I'm not sold on a high speed quad bringing in a substantial number of new skiers/boarders since it would basically only service two top to bottom runs, the upper half of each are very easy blues. Sno's layout is both great and terrible. It's why it's not for everyone, but perfect for some. A high speed quad to ski Runaway and Fast Track is more of a luxury item than a 22' pipe. I'd ride a hsq maybe once every 10 runs or so, just to mix things up from the other NF runs.

 

Sno took over and gave Mainline to the park kids. They cut down trees and installed a 13' pipe. Then, they carved out a spot from the learning area and installed rails like BB has at the bottom of their park. Now, they are making Spike into some crazy jib playground. How are they ignoring anyone?

 

I've said over and over how empty Sno is, but you might have missed where I estimated they'd doubled ticket sales this year over last. Sno has a long way to go---not that anyone around here wants it to be as busy as Blue or CB---but doubling ticket sales is surely going in the right direction. The $10 ticket offer to other ski area passholders is far and away the best and most cost effective idea Sno has come up with. And that they did it for Sunday at noon to close makes it perfect to really get skiers to try the mountain.

 

And Melissa is correct in that they were contractually obligated to spend like a drunken Doug.

 

Sno doesn't pay board members a million dollars a year like CB did over the years. Their overhead is next to nothing compared to CB or Blue. I have no idea what their books look like, but I suspect instead of salaries, Sno is simply investing into real improvements. I can't for the life of me see a problem with doing it that way.

 

Lastly, if Sno were to fail, the ski area simply goes back to county ownership. This is all being done at SMLLC's risk. More power to them.

[Ski]

Uh.. Spend money on something that can be used for MAYBE 1 month out of the season. (that pipe is not even close to being ready. Season ends in a month to month and a half) Or drop more money on something that can be used for the entire season.. Whats more worth it?

 

The blue argument is kind of not relavent. People are bitching because blue's conditions for the most part BLOW. If they actually blew snow conditions would greatly improve over the icy mess that is normally blue mountain. That is why people are bitching there.

 

Now that they have the cutter, why can't they have a 22' pipe for mid-January though mid-March next season? If it's too warm, then we're all screwed anyway. And if Sno is piling snow up on the NF and giving us superior conditions to every other PA place, then why care how many days the 22' pipe is perfect?

 

And keep in mind that Sno cut down a ton of trees to install the pipe...it's mostly new acreage, so it's not like they took anything away.

 

The Blue argument is totally relevant at least for what Blue passholders have said. Blue's new owners seem to be cutting back on snowmaking. Period. Wouldn't you prefer to have mid-winter conditions like at Sno? Sno has built a consistent four foot base on the NF. Is that bad?

 

Eh, I'm just sayin...

[Glenn]

Glenn, part of my point was just that for the first 5 years, Sno does NOT need to make money. After that then they need to turn a profit! Right now, it seems like Sno's plan is to sink money into the resort (per the terms of their sales contract) and take the losses as income tax breaks for the investors personally. However, after five years, they def. need to be making money!

 

This makes alot of sense. I don't think many (any?) of us had considered the tax aspect of it all. I also figured their business plan called for profits in 5 years, which means they would need to start turning around attendence in 2 1/2 or so.

 

Also, if people really feel this way, then they should CALL Sno and tell them! Glenn, I realize that you don't live around here anymore and thus will probably not call Sno since you won't be visiting it anytime soon, but other people, who WOULD visit it should def. share their opinion!

 

I personally don't care about high speed lifts. I like mountains that don't have them, because it means you aren't lossing the race if you ride the slower lifts. But... when Joe Schmoe who skis 5 times or less a year is trying to pick out a mountain to take his family to he looks at the trail map. The number of trails and high speed lifts becomes a huge deciding factor for him. So really it's not a matter of what I want, or even what most people on this website want. It's really about the people who rarely ski, bring their whole family, rent gear, eat at the lodges, etc etc etc want.

[Ski]

But... when Joe Schmoe who skis 5 times or less a year is trying to pick out a mountain to take his family to he looks at the trail map. The number of trails and high speed lifts becomes a huge deciding factor for him.

 

I'm not sure that's true, Glenn. It's certainly possible, but I vaguely recall a SAM article where the 'five timers' picked HSQ way down on their list of priorities. Food, lodging, easy access, and a dozen other things came first. It seem to recall thinking the list was upside down.