22 FOOT PIPE

[Ski]

I thought the Asian Invasion was over..

Doh

[rgrwilco]

i dont think so, pretty sure that is all snow.

 

 

so this pipe is all snow? seems like a waste of money/resources to me. if it was dug out, it would make more sense.

 

i stopped at snow on my way home from relatives in dunmore on saturday. i was impressed by the amount of snow.

[xNick11]

The pipe looks almost done to me. The still have to add more snow and they need to add the run in, but other then that I don't see any problems with them not being able to finish it by the Rev tour. Starting Wednesday park crew will be in full effect with getting stuff ready for the Rev tour. Hopefully some big jumps get put up for this one.

[Matt80]

when is the revolution tour?

[JordanA]

The pipe looks almost done to me. The still have to add more snow and they need to add the run in, but other then that I don't see any problems with them not being able to finish it by the Rev tour. Starting Wednesday park crew will be in full effect with getting stuff ready for the Rev tour. Hopefully some big jumps get put up for this one.

 

if they do put up big jumps, please keep them up!!! i just got home from boulder and their jumps made me realize how much I miss big jumps. Can you guys please do exactly what boulder did for their park, if boulder can do it i dont understand why other mountains in PA cant.

[ski HEAD]

when is the revolution tour?

Feb 29 to March 2

[Papasteeze]

Personally I think that if a mountain can find room in the park budget for a 22' pipe then there is absolutely no reason that they can't spend even a fraction of that on rails and jumps, features that have been proven time and time again as being more popular than a halfpipe.

 

it's wierd why they haven't had a decent park yet.

 

 

Didn't Sno buy a crapload of rails at the beginning of the season? And I'm pretty sure the huge jumps are still there.

 

But when it comes to Sno, suddenly everyone is worried about a ski area spending money? What the fuck is that all about?

 

So what's the beef? What's really behind the hate for a ski area suddenly spending like a drunken Doug?

 

I want to see them succeed - did they get any lift lines last weekend?

 

 

In addition, I'd like to point out that they aren't going to pull out just because they lose money for a few years. LOTS of people LOVE to invest in entities that lose money b/c you can reduce your federal income tax liabilty each year up to the amount you have invested in the venture, and you can do this I think for up to 5 years. So, even if Sno loses money right now, it isn't a big deal.

 

Who are you and how do you know that? Wanna post what the collective net worth of the new owners is?

 

 

Rhetorical question... Are you at all concerned about the long term success of Sno? Rather than 15 new rail/jump features and a new 22' foot halfpipe most of us would like to believe 45 new rail/jump features would bring in way more people. I think most people here would love to get in a 22' pipe, especially in the poconos (well I'd rather hit one in the front range, but you get the idea). The point is... high speed lifts bring people to mountains as do rails and jumps.

 

You've said over and over than people aren't at Sno, which basically means people aren't buying tickets. The things that will get people to buy tickets they have ignored until people will buy tickets, in favor of something only a few will enjoy.

 

No hate, it's just for a brand new mountain, that needs to make money, spending like a drunken Doug on things that likely won't make money seems a bit odd. You know this already but it's not that hardcore skiers/riders that make the mountains money, especially in the Scranton area where no one skis.

 

Thank you Glenn!

 

 

Glenn, part of my point was just that for the first 5 years, Sno does NOT need to make money. After that then they need to turn a profit! Right now, it seems like Sno's plan is to sink money into the resort (per the terms of their sales contract) and take the losses as income tax breaks for the investors personally. However, after five years, they def. need to be making money!

 

wow... REALLY?

 

 

very short, i was looking at it last night and its not nearly long enough to be considered a superpipe. Supposedly its going to be open for wednesday, but we will see.

 

Is it really only 400 feet on a 15 degree slope? please tell me this isn't true?

 

 

HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN SO MUCH SNOW IN THE POCONO'S?

 

ps...please don't tell anyone....we enjoy having our private, uncrowded little playground all to ourselves!

 

Boulders jumps easily have more snow. dumb to want it empty, don't you want them to sell tickets?

 

But I'll bet a season pass that there is new ownership by 2014. Any takers?

 

I'll go 2012

[trackbiker]

I thought the Asian Invasion was over..

 

Good One! Best laugh I had all day!

I think most people on this board didn't get it!

[rgrwilco]

haha i got it, just didnt know how to actually respond to it.

[snorovr]

Bear Creek has spent money like a drunken whatever for the past 4 or 5 years, and now the owners want to see the investment pay off. They are done for now with the hotel and conference areas, which will likely turn into the profitable part of their business given their location and environment. If it doesn't then they're gonna have to go pretty heavy on summer sports or build the hated water park type attractions. I can't really compare the two because I've never been to Sno, but just from what I read here and see online and hear from people, they are going through pretty similar periods of investment except that the money is being spent in very different ways.

[Ski]

BB's jumps have more snow? Yeah, okay, Rob. You keep telling yourself that.

 

You know, Rob, if Sno pulls this off next season for a 2+ month period, kids at other ski areas who are looking to get 'noticed' may be at a little disadvantage. I've heard through the grapevine that some big magazines have been making inquiries with the PR department about setting up photo shoots. But I suppose you aren't really one of those people who care about stuff like that.

[Johnny Law]

Bear Creek has spent money like a drunken whatever for the past 4 or 5 years, and now the owners want to see the investment pay off. They are done for now with the hotel and conference areas, which will likely turn into the profitable part of their business given their location and environment. If it doesn't then they're gonna have to go pretty heavy on summer sports or build the hated water park type attractions. I can't really compare the two because I've never been to Sno, but just from what I read here and see online and hear from people, they are going through pretty similar periods of investment except that the money is being spent in very different ways.

 

The first year of a place though is not a great indicator, the first year of the change over to Bear saw a large investment influx (20 millionish if memory serves me) and not a whole lot of traffic. I think that year was the last time I parked in the first row. I wasn't at Bear last year alot but this year you can definitely see a significant amount of growth from the first year. Additionally they made money last year (5 millionish) I would assume that does not reflect any sort of extensive debt repayment but that is still very good. I would wait a year or two to see what happens with Sno, I don't know what the casino situation in Scranton is but that alone could vastly change Sno's outlook.

[Melissa]

, I don't know what the casino situation in Scranton is but that alone could vastly change Sno's outlook.

 

Mohegan Sun is about 15 minutes away and the new DeNaples one ummmm can't think of the name of it right now is about 45 minutes away. The new one is closer to some of the other Pocono ski mountains.

[poconoceancity]

BB's jumps have more snow? Yeah, okay, Rob. You keep telling yourself that.

 

You know, Rob, if Sno pulls this off next season for a 2+ month period, kids at other ski areas who are looking to get 'noticed' may be at a little disadvantage. I've heard through the grapevine that some big magazines have been making inquiries with the PR department about setting up photo shoots. But I suppose you aren't really one of those people who care about stuff like that.

 

Imagine the two of you sharing the same mountain.

[toast21602]

Imagine the two of you sharing the same mountain.

 

the homocide rate in scranton would increase by 2.

[Ski]

the homocide rate in scranton would increase by 2.

 

I'm trying to stay on Lib's good side. I figure a high power PASR mod would make for a credible alibi.

[method9455]

You know, Rob, if Sno pulls this off next season for a 2+ month period, kids at other ski areas who are looking to get 'noticed' may be at a little disadvantage. I've heard through the grapevine that some big magazines have been making inquiries with the PR department about setting up photo shoots. But I suppose you aren't really one of those people who care about stuff like that.

 

Sweet, inquiries. Go to Transworld Snowboarding's website, THE BIGGEST of all park magazines, count up the number of Boulder and Mountain Creek videos (several this season alone), now count up the number of Blue and Bear Creek videos (0), now find me a post where someone says that Sno is better than Blue or Bear Creek. Sno needs to pass Blue and Bear Creek first to even be on that level. Then they would need to get better than Boulder and Mountain Creek, there is momentum in the industry and it takes a while for it to shift. Boulder was much better than Mountain Creek last year, no one can argue otherwise, but who was getting all the press anyway? Mountain Creek, it was only this year that Boulder has been getting more press, and Creek is still getting quite a bit (although they upgraded themselves a bit too, it is more deserved this year). Even if they throw up the 22', make it perfect, and throw the best comp NEPA has ever seen, it will be a while before a park scene develops. How long ago was it that Mountain Creek was the first to have a Superpipe down here? 6 years? How long since they where the first great park in the area, 10 years? You go up there and the scene is incredible, there are more guys throwing down in the park on a given friday than all of the skiers sno gets in a weekend. Everyone is delusional if you think that making a 22' pipe in late february suddenly puts you on the map. Someone else mentioned it, but seriously how long is this pipe going to be open to the public? Lets say they get it open and perfect for the comp, it opens March 3rd to the public? How long is the season going to be? Even if they keep it open until April 15th, which I would doubt is possible, that is only 6 weeks. Do you really think that 6 weeks of a (hypothetically) great pipe makes them better than Boulder which has had a great park since mid November? Or Mountain Creek which has had a great park since mid December?

 

 

 

****Start long rant on why they should have taken the million bucks and built a killer park first and not a giant pile of snow that will not be a great pipe ***********

And I for one don't think it will be maintained well, if they are having trouble with jumps and rails, what is the pipe going to look like? There is a huge learning curve on this, and it will take a season or two. I've said all along, until they have dirt underneith there is no hope, it just takes way too long. I'm glad they are starting this year because they will learn from it. I bet next year it will open weeks to months earlier, with 1/2 as much snow or less, and be decent for much longer. But it would defy all odds for them to suddenly make a perfect pipe first try and maintain it all year, yea right. Mount Snow has been building super pipes for YEARS, and Gaitor the guy who cuts them is a full time employee, and has been doing it for YEARS, and their weather is much much better, and it is on dirt. I went up early January, and the pipe was ALMOST perfect, but not quite, it had some air bubbles. A warm spell hit that week, the air bubbles melted it from the inside out, and the pipe got toasted and they had to start over the next week. Thats how fickle these things are.

 

So far Sno has a giant pile of snow, that is 10% of the battle. Mount Snow had a pipe, even with all of their experiance it went badly, so they where back to a giant pile of snow, i.e. SQUARE ONE. A giant pile of snow is SQUARE ONE. Call me when the walls are cut in a straight line (how many years did Mountain Creek have to recut their walls because the Zaugg drove a crooked path down?) Call me when they cut it and there are no cavities in the walls (good luck), Call me when it is maintained well such that the walls are vert, not over or under, not hanging whales at the top, not washed out parts. Call me when they cut it often enough, but not so often that the zaugg makes it into a W rather than a U (mountain creek NEVER got that right, even after 5 years). Call me when its the right pitch. If any one of those things is wrong, the pipe is useless.

 

First year Mountain Creek did it, the walls where over vert because people would ride down and be unable to air out, scraping out the middle of the wall not the top, so it shot you back into hte middle. So they cut it aggressively the next year to avoid that and hit dirt and ruined the pipe. The next year after they made more snow so they had more to cut back, and it started out as a taco but became almost perfect, by my eye it was but yet no one could get much air out of it, I was getting like 3 or 4 feet and the pros only about 10-15 and the Grand Prix. not sure if it was too icy, not steep enough, I don't know, but no one could get far out. The year after it was perfect for a long time, but after cutting it too much with the Zaugg the snow at the base of the wall was lower than the middle, if you look at a zaugg cutter it does the wall, the tranny, and some of the floor, but not the middle of the floor. So the middle was high, you would come down and it would blow all your speed, but if they pushed the middle out there would be no base, pipe was very technically difficult to ride because it bucked you hard, although still able to air it. Last year, it never even materialized.

 

So yea, to you it looks great. But this is like an english major looking at the blueprints for a motor and saying it is going to work, when a mechanical engineer sees 100 flaws. It IS an impressive amount of snow. I will say I have never seen that much snow, not at Boulder, not at Blue, not at Mountain Creek, not even at Mount Snow. But that is because they all where sane enough to put dirt underneith it. The amount of snow isn't impressive, because I'm reading thread after thread of people complaining about a shitty park. Show me a perfect 13 foot pipe and a well manicured park with a thought of a 22' pipe in 5 years, and I would be a lot more impressed. Right now what they have built isn't up to what they said they would, and there is nothing to me that shows what they are going to build is up to it either. I have no idea what makes you think they can maintain at 22' pipe if they can't maintain a regular park, it defies all logic, other than that you have faith in the people at the mountain (like I do in Gaitor at MS, the JibLab at MC, the Iron Works at BC, maybe even Ian at Boulder but not much), which since there really are none at Sno I don't understand either.

 

One thing is for sure, I am one of the people who can ride a 22' pipe, and one looking forward to a good pipe, and one willing to make the drive to Sno for it, and definately spend the money for a few days in a pipe, but there is just no way in hell I am doing any of those things this year. If there where park riders saying, man this looks good, and some video or picture of people airing out of it, I would consider, but all I have so far is a bunch of people who can't ride the park saying DAMN THERE IS A LOT OF SNOW THERE. which I even think might not be true, it looks short, and it doesn't look complete yet, which means they have less than 10 days to finish making snow, knead it and cut it, how are they going to get the air out? The proof is in the pipe, which is dependent on the skill of the guy cutting it (I have faith in Neptune for that part) and the skill of those cutting it after (I do not have faith in them), not the size of the pile of snow beforehand.

[toast21602]

why the fuck is that so damn long?

 

all i read were the bold parts.

[Schif]

Long but logical. I never really knew what went into making a pipe until this year but after reading stuff here and some other research, it kind of seems like Sno is kind of fighting a losing battle with this thing. However, they did book the Revolutions tour. What are they going to do, cancel? Tell them to go somewhere else? I think they will be able to get the pipe looking good for the weekend of the tour. It probably won't be structurally sound, it will probably have lots of air pockets, (total speculation, prove me wrong sno) but for that weekend, it will be a solid pipe. Come monday, it may just collapse into itself or they may try to cut it more and it will just be a craggy icy mess, but at least the tour got in.

 

Long story short, they signed a contract with the Revolutions tour saying they would have a pipe so they are going to have a pipe. Its impractical to tell them to just give up now. They NEED this thing if even just for that weekend to fulfill their contractual agreement. Give sno some props for having the guts to try to build a pipe for this instead of just throwing in the towel.

[method9455]

why the fuck is that so damn long?

 

all i read were the bold parts.

 

I'm way too verbose, that really only took 5 minutes. I am used to speaking in front of large groups of people where you have to repeat yourself throughout and so it comes out in my writing now too.

[Ski]

Method, you seem like a really cool kid and all, with extremely thought-out posts. No disrespect meant, but you drink way too much coffee or something.

[Ski]

Long story short, they signed a contract with the Revolutions tour saying they would have a pipe so they are going to have a pipe. Its impractical to tell them to just give up now. They NEED this thing if even just for that weekend to fulfill their contractual agreement. Give sno some props for having the guts to try to build a pipe for this instead of just throwing in the towel.

 

Yeah, that may very well be exactly what happened. But what if Sno had announced at the beginning of the season that they were waiting until next season to excavate dirt for a superpipe and were going to just rely on moving PoleCats from two other trails to blow enough snow this year?

 

If they said it up front, would that have relieved all these people from worrying about how Sno is spending their money?

 

Absolutely not talking to you, Schif, but it's amazing to hear the response to a ski area spending money. I sure don't recall Montage being able to sell mini billboard space to local hotels like the ones at the base of the lifts. The bunny lift even had one. And any peeling ads on the top of the Iron Horse lift towers were 10 years old, but have now been replaced with new ads. Kind of funny how getting all caught up in hating on something makes you miss what's really happening.

[Papasteeze]

daaaaaamn... Method, I for one appreciate your posts. The details in your posts are sound and very helpful to those who are interested enough to read all the way through. We can only hope that the Sno Mtn owners are reading your posts and learning from them so that they manage the people who they pay to manage thier park. Good work and Thank you!

[Ski]

It's "their" park, Rob. "Thier" still isn't a word.

[Papasteeze]

It's "their" park, Rob. "Thier" still isn't a word.

 

do you think there 22' pipe will be open on sunday?