Papasteeze Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I was disappointed with my powder performance this season at JH and Copper this season. I was on Karmas 83cm under foot. I decided to start shopping for a powder ski 100cm+ and bought the Gotamas. It took awhile to find brakes wide enough for the Jester bindings, but finally I had them in the truck this weekend ready to go. I had them center mounted, another first. I thought about pulling them out at Roundtop on saturday but felt it was just too wierd seeing all the skinny skis. I couldn't stand it on Sunday and stepped in. Oh man... what slush? I wish I was more articulate to describe the fun that came back to skiing for me, but floating those around and learning a lazy center mount carve brought back a feeling I haven't had for years. So if you see me on a stupidily fat ski on the slushy crudy groomers, don't knock it until you have tried it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justo8484 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I was disappointed with my powder performance this season at JH and Copper this season. I was on Karmas 83cm under foot. I decided to start shopping for a powder ski 100cm+ and bought the Gotamas. It took awhile to find brakes wide enough for the Jester bindings, but finally I had them in the truck this weekend ready to go. I had them center mounted, another first. I thought about pulling them out at Roundtop on saturday but felt it was just too wierd seeing all the skinny skis. I couldn't stand it on Sunday and stepped in. Oh man... what slush? I wish I was more articulate to describe the fun that came back to skiing for me, but floating those around and learning a lazy center mount carve brought back a feeling I haven't had for years. So if you see me on a stupidily fat ski on the slushy crudy groomers, don't knock it until you have tried it. amen. nothin more fun in spring crud than a nice fat ski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Center mounting a powder ski? I'm sure it's tons of fun for riding around slushy groomers, but the whole point is to float the ski right? Are you planning to land switch in the powder? Glad you found something you are having fun with though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorovr Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 I had them center mounted, another first. NS hipster... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Center mounting a powder ski? I'm sure it's tons of fun for riding around slushy groomers, but the whole point is to float the ski right? Are you planning to land switch in the powder? Glad you found something you are having fun with though. I know a few guys who mount theirs center too, some of them out of bounds skiers, none bad. A ski that wide floats because of its width not the setback of the binding, you are talking 3cms out of 180 thats about 1.8% of a difference in position versus a 25% increase in surface area, it is nothing. But then when you get onto crud or corn you are mounted at the center of the arc rather than back, now you are riding the edge not all that extra surface area, and the flex of a twin ski is more apt to center mount where a regular ski even if you are set back your at the middle of the flex pattern because the tail is so much stiffer than the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 I know a few guys who mount theirs center too, some of them out of bounds skiers, none bad. A ski that wide floats because of its width not the setback of the binding, you are talking 3cms out of 180 thats about 1.8% of a difference in position versus a 25% increase in surface area, it is nothing. But then when you get onto crud or corn you are mounted at the center of the arc rather than back, now you are riding the edge not all that extra surface area, and the flex of a twin ski is more apt to center mount where a regular ski even if you are set back your at the middle of the flex pattern because the tail is so much stiffer than the tip. I ride a snowboard which is wider than the gotma for sure, but I still have a setback stance on my freeride board, and I wish I had a longer board with more setback, so I wouldn't end up back seat so much. Any serious powder skiier I've met on pow boards has them setback (at varying amounts of course). I just don't understand the purchase of a powder specific skis, for better powder skiing, then center mounting them. Even the guys rocking the reverse camber fat skis have them set back. Pretty sure tanner hall has his setback in believe and he even lands switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick malozzi Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 I ride a snowboard which is wider than the gotma for sure, but I still have a setback stance on my freeride board, and I wish I had a longer board with more setback, so I wouldn't end up back seat so much. Any serious powder skiier I've met on pow boards has them setback (at varying amounts of course). I just don't understand the purchase of a powder specific skis, for better powder skiing, then center mounting them. Even the guys rocking the reverse camber fat skis have them set back. Pretty sure tanner hall has his setback in believe and he even lands switch. Agreed, I have my freeride board set up with it setback. I believe it is 10mm, and I'd like to go more. However the Burton bolt patter on my Custom has a big jump if i go to the next pattern, and it feels like too much for the length of board. I love center mounting my Dominant though. It makes riding switch so freaking fun and easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorovr Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Ya it will ALWAYS be my opinion that the only reason to center mount a ski like that is if you are hitting backcountry hits 95% of your time on the ski. I know you're mostly gonna be rippin' the gnar steeps at Boulder on them, but if I buy a ski like that I buy it for the 10% of the season that I get to ski hip deep blower, in which case more tip is always a good thing. There have been many cases where I wish my Dynastar Big Troubles were mounted back a couple centimeters more for the type of skier I am. I don't see you or I dropping 9's off 50 foot cornice step downs in the next five years... PS. I'm jealous you got Gotamas though. I've always wanted to rip around on a pair to see what they're like cuz I think they'd be the perfect ski for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan- Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 (edited) Damn, I love how everyone starts bagging on someone if they do something that is "different". Sure most will mount a pow ski set back but damn he's having fun on them right? Isn't that what counts? It's all preference. I don't ride my board set back at all when i ride pow. I don't know what size boards you guys are riding, but i've always been fine. But it could just be that i ride a 159 and i weigh 140lbs. Edited March 18, 2008 by Dan- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorovr Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 (edited) Damn, I love how everyone starts bagging on someone if they do something that is "different". Sure most will mount a pow ski set back but damn he's having fun on them right? Isn't that what counts? It's all preference. I don't ride my board set back at all when i ride pow. I don't know what size boards you guys are riding, but i've always been fine. But it could just be that i ride a 159 and i weigh 140lbs. Its all the scene though. KT says all the time that he wished his Big Troubles were center mounted, and I just shake my head at him because I wish mine were back a little more (I mounted mine at rec'd). However, I've had at least twice as many days of deep snow on those skis, where he hasn't really been able to put them to the test in deeper snow that much. He has barely skied his because of it. Papa skies a lot more like me than he does like KT, even though I know we both have higher hopes. No harm in a little gentle ribbing (I think Papa will appreciate the NS comment), and we are fairies compared to what a lot of the "maggots" would say... Edited March 18, 2008 by T*Maki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan- Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Its all the scene though. KT says all the time that he wished his Big Troubles were center mounted, and I just shake my head at him because I wish mine were back a little more (I mounted mine at rec'd). However, I've had at least twice as many days of deep snow on those skis, where he hasn't really been able to put them to the test in deeper snow that much. He has barely skied his because of it. Papa skies a lot more like me than he does like KT, even though I know we both have higher hopes. No harm in a little gentle ribbing (I think Papa will appreciate the NS comment), and we are fairies compared to what a lot of the "maggots" would say... Oh no doubt. Im just saying, that if he's having fun on them, thats all that really matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 A powder ski is floating first based on the size of its footprint and second on its angle of attack. You have to lean back so damn much because you don't have a large enough area under foot. Setting the binding back is just one way of getting that angle and its a horribly inefficient way. A much better way is a tapered tail a la Burton Fish/Malolo, the dovetail boards and others, that just puts more surface area up front and the moment gives you the angle of attack not your weight distribution. The same thing happens here, you increased the surface area of the ski but a huge margin, so the angle of attack matters less. So long as the tips are above the tails, you will be fine. On a narrower ski you had to get a huge angle because the skis where cutting deep through the snow, on a fat ski the angle is a lot less, so its not like you need to lay back. Sure putting them an inch back would be easier, but would it be THAT much easier? No. And then when you get into crud/groomers/corn the center mounted binding puts your foot right at the apex of the edge, which is going to feel great. If you look at the Gotama it has a wood core end to end and the flex pattern is uniform with the centroid at the center point, so mounting it over that point is great. On a lot of other skis the centroid is several inches behind the actual center, so even though you are not mounted in the center your foot is over the apex of the curve. Thats what he is feeling when the binding is centered, that is why it feels good to be centered on a Dominant, that is why it feels good to be set back on a board with a stiff tail and soft nose. It isn't about where the geometric center of the ski is, it is about where the centroid of the moment of inertia for the flex is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Yeah method you got it! I investigated the Gotamas thoroughly and reluctantly made my decision. Why the reluctance? Because center mounting was contrary to everything I had heard about skiing in the powder. Now if there was just some powder somewhere close. PS. I'm jealous you got Gotamas though. I've always wanted to rip around on a pair to see what they're like cuz I think they'd be the perfect ski for me. Hit me up if you see me. My binding is set 313mm and the Jesters appear to have a ton of adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Yeah method you got it! I investigated the Gotamas thoroughly and reluctantly made my decision. Why the reluctance? Because center mounting was contrary to everything I had heard about skiing in the powder. Now if there was just some powder somewhere close. Yea I want to make that clear, geometrically center mounting most skis, including most twin tips, is bad. But for the Gotamas it is a different story because that is how they are meant to be. Some other twins fall into this category, but by and large it is not the case. You see it in snowboard, there are some boards that are "True Twin" and some that are "Shape Twin". I have a Burton Jeremy Jones, it is symetrical in shape nose/tail, but the flex pattern is different. It feels different riding switch. My Ride Kink was a true twin and felt the same (albeit bad) in both directions. The Gotamas are a true twin ski, thats why riding them center is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorovr Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 (edited) The Gotamas are a true twin ski, thats why riding them center is awesome. WHAT!?!#?$%^$!!?!?!?!??? Do you have the Gotama and the Walls confused? Edited March 18, 2008 by T*Maki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan- Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Definitely not a true twin. http://www.volkl.com/ski/freeskiing_gotama.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 BTW interesting footnote I might add. Nips T-halls at 161cm with STH12 Bindings seem to weigh exactly the same as my Gotamas 176cm with Jester Bindings. There must be close to double the the surface area of the 2 skis. This may contribute a lot to how they felt in the crud on Sunday. I am anxious to get back on them again with all this debate. Question to you Tech guys. Ever heard of a freestyle plate that would allow me to move the binding back and forth from the 2 suggested mounting points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorovr Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 BTW interesting footnote I might add. Nips T-halls at 161cm with STH12 Bindings seem to weigh exactly the same as my Gotamas 176cm with Jester Bindings. There must be close to double the the surface area of the 2 skis. This may contribute a lot to how they felt in the crud on Sunday. I am anxious to get back on them again with all this debate. Ya I was always impressed by how light the Gotamas felt in shops for how burly a ski they are. The Jesters are nice and light too for what they are. I'm trying to get on a pair of the 12 din Jesters when they come out. Whats their name? Starts with a C and is along the same medieval theme.... I don't feel like digging around on NS right now. Anyway, apparently they have a little more plastic in them than the Jesters to bring the weight down a bit more. I haven't needed anything more than a 12 din binding for park thus far, so think they'll be a bit better for what I'd be using them for. Question to you Tech guys. Ever heard of a freestyle plate that would allow me to move the binding back and forth from the 2 suggested mounting points? I've seen one online but I don't know if it would be compatible with the Jesters... Some guy was machining them for Tyrolia bindings out of his home shop. I think I bookmarked the page on my other computer at home, I'll see if I can find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Definitely not a true twin. http://www.volkl.com/ski/freeskiing_gotama.html Hmm, you are right on the shape definitely not a true twin. I was thinking the Gotamas, since we don't have the Walls at my shop. I remember the Volkl rep talking about them and the symmetrical flex though, so now I am confused, I have always thought they where true twin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorovr Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hmm, you are right on the shape definitely not a true twin. I was thinking the Gotamas, since we don't have the Walls at my shop. I remember the Volkl rep talking about them and the symmetrical flex though, so now I am confused, I have always thought they where true twin. Nah man the Gotamas have been big mountain twins, some of the originals in this genre no less, for as long as I can remember. Thats why I've been so confused through this whole thread. Haha. I'm 99% sure they don't have symmetrical flex. I've heard plenty of reps say one thing and mean another, there are so many "call out" tech terms that companies use these days to market "proprietary" tech that even reps cannot keep them straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Nah man the Gotamas have been big mountain twins, some of the originals in this genre no less, for as long as I can remember. Thats why I've been so confused through this whole thread. Haha. I'm 99% sure they don't have symmetrical flex. I've heard plenty of reps say one thing and mean another, there are so many "call out" tech terms that companies use these days to market "proprietary" tech that even reps cannot keep them straight. You got that right, I'm not going to blame them for not making it clear, they have to cover a lot of info in not a lot of time. I know it was a all mountain twin but I was believing he meant symmetrical. Some of the stuff reps tell us though is just BS, a lot of times tiny differences get magnified into gods gift to skiing. Just watch as the industry walks away from 5 years of telling us how integrated bindings are the best thing since sliced bread, they are already starting to go back to regular mounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillycore Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Congrats on the new skis... Papasteeze!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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