Ridge

[Ski]

McCall Ski Racing Team?  Are they special in some way compared to other race teams?

25584[/snapback]

Sib, I think it's Gary Dranow's NASTAR cult following. Along with waist turning, there's a special feature on narcissism. I dare you to sign up for it and ask to see his scars. Just don't mention anything to do with Masters Ski Racing.

[sibhusky]

I was gonna list all the MSRT's I found on the web, but decided to skip it. Obviously, you have to be a NASTAR-aholic to have heard of this.

[Ski]

I was gonna list all the MSRT's I found on the web, but decided to skip it.

Edited April 24, 2005 by ski999

[Papasteeze]

I was gonna list all the MSRT's I found on the web, but decided to skip it.  Obviously, you have to be a NASTAR-aholic to have heard of this.

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http://www.modernskiracing.org/

 

Nastar fanatics they are.. A good bunch of very dedicated fanatical skiers who want to share what they say is a "breakthrough". As a newbie overloaded with tremendous amounts of confusing info, it simply appears to be one more training technique that works for some.. It is an interesting concept. As with everything, there are a lot of vocal opinions, negative ones toward this group of good hearted guys is.......

 

All I can say is that they love to ski and they are very encouraging and welcoming to all who want to listen. It looks like they will be having a clinic at the same time my other son will be in BC. I know and trust them.. They can't possibly be making any money at it, all though I am sure they wish they were.

 

 

http://www.modernskiracing.org/

[Ski]

Hah, some pretty interesting testimonials. "Uh, yeah, it may help in flat light in downhill events a little, but I haven't tried it" and "I haven't really looked into it, but when I get time, I'll be sure to".

 

The Masters racers that smoke Gary by 10 seconds on real GS and slalom courses consider it a joke at best. Saying that people will improve because he's teaching enough of the regular race edging, but his "unique" waist steering is just plain silly and he even mislabels muscle groups.

 

But maybe the guys that completely destroy him in Intermountain Masters are wrong and he's right. Who knows.

[Glenn]

I'm no expert. I really know little about skiing technique and even less about racing, but it seems at least plausible that he has developed a solid technique, yet lacks the experience needed to make it super effective on a real GS or SL coarse. In other words, hes found something that works, but doesn't have the skill to execute for any number of reasons. Then again maybe he sucks at life, don't really know. Maybe its the best technique for a NASTAR type coarse for whatever reason. Did he ever have a legitimate racing career or has it always been NASTAR?

[Ski]

As far as I know, Gary never raced outside of NASTAR or club racing until early this year when he entered a Masters race. Simplified, Masters racing is where old Skidudes go. It's an extention of, and overseen by, USSA. It is a step above ASRA racing, although there are a number of people that race both.

I believe he was "released from employment" at Park City Mountain Resort a couple of years ago, where he coached and gave lessons to adults.

Dranow is just really odd to me. He has used the NASTAR board to take recreational skiers through a journey that visited his broken neck and subsequent operation, complete with photos and horrible descriptions. I recall the photo of him sitting in his hospital room, drugged, and his robe half off, and I wondered about all the children that were seeing this after just looking to find racing tips.

95% of NASTAR racers are people just out to have fun on miniature golf style courses. That NASTAR is a "feeder program" into USSA is true, but only to an extremely limited extent. It gets little kids to say, "Wow, that was fun, Mom, can I do it again?" So Mom signs them up with a USSA program that offers coaching and venues. And when it comes to racing, coaching is everything. And NASTAR has absolutely no coaching beyond over-priced mini-clinics at the vast majority of resorts.

 

There isn't really a downside to NASTAR, other than that most courses are just tuck runs. Kids get into a habit of tucking everything, but half of all ski races for juniors are slaloms. Learning slalom early is like learning to play in the infield first in baseball, as opposed to the outfield first. Everything comes at you faster and you learn the technical side first. It's much easier to move from an infield position to the outfield later (other than old sluggers that are moved to first base because they are too slow to run down fly balls).

 

So coaches try to build off of slalom at an early age, even though a lot of kids want to specialize in speed events. It's why Bode always had a chance to be a great downhiller, wherein a great downhiller almost never becomes a slalom skier.

[sibhusky]

He's listed as an Alpine Master, Alpine Coach, and Alpine Official on the USSA site. He's also just a few years younger than I am, so if he ever raced, it was 30 years or more ago. He doesn't have any races as a Master in the last few years, either.

 

How'd you find out he was "released from employment"?

[Glenn]

Ok, let me get this right. Masters is NOT what the pro racers (Bode, Maier etc are racing. Masters is simply where all the guys who raced in high school go to compete at competitive level? You are going on to say that that Drawnow was getting beat by 10 seconds by these guys? I understand the nature of NASTAR (in reference to the mini golf statement), but if there was a national mini golf championship I would hope the guy doing clinics (and presumably winning or coming close to the top) could at least hold his own on a real putting green. Then again I don't know that much about golf either, so maybe I'm way off on that one. Is it at least fair to say his technique is helpful for people at NASTAR level racing or is better to learn rather than whatever other technique is currently being used as the "standard" for higher level racing. In other words, does his technique have any advantage for the recreational racer over a more traditional technique. Or is that what everyone is debating?

[Glenn]

Interesting side note. I think Dranow put out a rock album in 1994, with the group "Gary Dranow and the manic emotions". I'm pretty sure its the same guy as the band is out of Park City, Utah. Not exactly the stuff I'm into but maybe some other people here might dig on it.

 

Here's the bands website http://www.musicianmp3.com/artist/GaryDran...eManicEmotions/

[Papasteeze]

This string reminds me of all of the different types of lessons I have had with all the different terminology and techniques given by all types of ages, genders and personalities with widely varying experience while I was simply trying to improve my golf/skiing/tennis/baseball/math/science/art/business.... IMO there are no right ways and no wrong ways - all the lessons are good and have taught me more the bad ones taught me even more.. BTW - all the instruction in the world is only as good as the student is capable of. I suck at all the aforementioned stuff! ..Not really..

 

There are those who teach and those who.... It's all good, The Dranow group is a infectious fun loving group. If you want drill Sargents, I don't think they are it, they don't make you sit time out when you miss a gate. They don't bark from a timing tower. They do take run after run analyzing and critiquing with physical examples side by side offering lots of positive encouragement. Perfectly suited for the recreational skier.

[sibhusky]

All I know is that it is harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn it right the first time. I think it was in Ski Racing where they were saying that the upcoming skiers are better at "new school" racing technique than people like Bode who had to unlearn what they were taught years ago when they were skiing on straight skis, so that racers should be getting better in the next few years as they were all brought up on shaped skis. (HA, I bet by then there will be yet ANOTHER "new" technique going!)

 

My opinion...do whatever works for you, but be open to suggestions. Listen, then ask WHAT EXACTLY is the benefit over the way you are doing it? Case in point -- my daughter and I, like many women, have a tendency to "A frame" (for the uninitiated, that means your shins look like this |\ while turning). My reaction, was "so what?" The reason I am told, is that A framing is not as STRONG in terms of pushing you down the slopes as parallel shins would be. It doesn't make a bit of difference for the average skier, but it makes a difference for racers, who want to push forward into the next turn. So, for me, I don't care that much, but for Siblet, it's a big deal.

 

Pole plants (where you actually stick the thing in the snow) make little difference to racers these days, but they make a big difference in tough terrain. You get my drift.

[Ski]

He's listed as an Alpine Master, Alpine Coach, and Alpine Official on the USSA site.  He's also just a few years younger than I am, so if he ever raced, it was 30 years or more ago.  He doesn't have any races as a Master in the last few years, either. 

 

How'd you find out he was "released from employment"?

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Yes, he coaches Adult Masters at Park City, yet he just started entering his first Masters races this past season. I just vaguely recall it wasn't a happy departure from employment from old posts.

[Ski]

Ok, let me get this right. Masters is NOT what the pro racers (Bode, Maier etc are racing. Masters is simply where all the guys who raced in high school go to compete at competitive level? You are going on to say that that Drawnow was getting beat by 10 seconds by these guys? I understand the nature of NASTAR (in reference to the mini golf statement), but if there was a  national mini golf championship I would hope the guy doing clinics (and presumably winning or coming close to the top) could at least hold his own on a real putting green. Then again I don't know that much about golf either, so maybe I'm way off on that one. Is it at least fair to say his technique is helpful for people at NASTAR level racing or is better to learn rather than whatever other technique is currently being used as the "standard" for higher level racing. In other words, does his technique have any advantage for the recreational racer over a more traditional technique. Or is that what everyone is debating?

25681[/snapback]

Masters is for people over 21 who want to continue ski racing beyond their junior careers. You simply pay annual dues to the USSA and sign up for the region you wish to race. In this area, you'd have races at Mountain Creek and be part of 'Dude's races. Mostly, though, you have races every weekend either in NY or New England. depending on which division you select.

 

Some of the best coaches weren't necessarily some of the best racers. Some never raced at all. But I was kind of surprised to read his endless blog on the NASTAR MB about his personal journey in entering his first Masters race this year. The self-proclaimed NASTAR Ski Meister loaded up a half-dozen pairs of race stock Rossi skis and went off to kick some Masters butt. He ended up getting creamed in the GS and fell down in the slalom.

 

But the important part was that everyone got to see lots of pictures of him

 

My opinion of his technique is mostly based on the opinions of top level Masters racers whose opinions I respect. The vast majority of NASTAR racers don't need lectures on waist steering and the other 50 things Gary hits them with. A former UVM racer who knows Gary said "It's like teaching a third grader a flawed form of calculus."

[Ski]

Here's the bands website http://www.musicianmp3.com/artist/GaryDran...eManicEmotions/

25682[/snapback]

Yep, that's him.

[sibhusky]

The self-proclaimed NASTAR Ski Meister loaded up a half-dozen pairs of race stock Rossi skis and went off to kick some Masters butt. He ended up getting creamed in the GS and fell down in the slalom.

 

Do you have a URL to the race results? They are supposed to be posted on the Northern Division's site, but the race organizers haven't provided them to the webmaster.

[NJSkiFamily]

Sibhusky -

 

Oh my God - that A-frame turning you described is exactly what I had problems with this year. No matter how hard my brain tells my legs to stay parallel in the turn my uphill leg just refuses.

 

It means that I'm slipping and scraping instead of carving through the snow. Absolutely it slows you down.

 

Any advice on how to break that habit? Is it a flexing problem with the ankle or something else? Maybe reach out more when pole planting?

 

I have heard from ski instructors that women and men ski differently because of the differences in our hip shapes.

[sibhusky]

Well, for me it's a combination of the leftover desire to keep my legs close together (old style skiing) and my hips. I can correct it consciously by thinking about it, but really I should get my ski binding/boot canted (not the cuff, actually recanting the entire boot). Anyway, I drop one leg back on turns to the left, behind the other knee. I don't do it the other direction.

[NJSkiFamily]

What does "recanting" the boot mean?

 

Funny you should mention that you feel a difference turning in one direction versus the other. I definitely have a "sad" side.

 

I got criticized for skiing with my legs too far apart but I forgot to ask why? Does it matter? I worry with the shaped skis that they tips cross if I ski with my legs too close together.

[sibhusky]

Well, sometimes they grind the boot sole, sometimes it's done to the binding. The end result is that knock knees or bowlegs are realigned into a vertical position or something in relation to a flat ski.

 

Some boots come with cuff adjustments that purport to do this, but it's not true canting from what I understand. I've never had it done, but am thinking that Siblet might profit from it.

 

The current thinking on leg spread is the same as in most other sports, I believe -- shoulder width. It's supposed to present a sturdier base without compromising your ability to control things.

Edited April 25, 2005 by sibhusky

[NJSkiFamily]

I agree on the shoulder width advice. It is more comfortable. I think that comment came from an instructor who was taught "old style" - his skies are taller than he is.

 

Next season I'm going to really focus on keeping both my shins aligned. I think I need to flex my knees more while keeping the pelvis straight - keep out of the "back seat".

 

One thing I noticed with today's shaped skis is that they are "too" easy to turn on and I end up being a lazy skier.

[Ski]

NJski, here's the bible for carving turns:

 

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/snowshack/quicturmadea1.html

 

Hobart is the founder of one of the top ski academies in the nation and a wicked nice guy. His DVD/tape is the best and most understandable explanation of the use of shaped skis. I learned more in one 90 minute lecture from him than in anything else I've done over the last few years.

 

When 'Mom gets back (if she comes back, that is) from her most recent outting, she may have an opinion to add.

 

Sry, Sib, I can't find the URL. Full results had gone up right after the race, then seemed to disappear. It wasn't at the Intermountain USSA site, though, but at a ski club site I'd found via Google. I recall it was a PDF of a Xerox of the original results.

[NJSkiFamily]

ski999.....

 

Excellent......thanks for the link.

[Ski]

I got criticized for skiing with my legs too far apart but I forgot to ask why?  Does it matter?  I worry with the shaped skis that they tips cross if I ski with my legs too close together.

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Ha, a ski instructor that tells you that should have his/her head examined, unless they are teaching deep powder skiing. All the power to you if you are working off of a wide platform. Your hip flexer muscles will start complaining at some point if you stay too wide. But learning a wide stance makes learning a carve much easier.

 

Basic ski carving begins with a "gorilla turn", where your feet are way apart and your weight is extremely far forward. You can even dangle your arms in front of you like a gorilla. Then just tip one ski on edge and see what happens...the downhill ski will whip around.

 

We were all taught to pressure the downhill ski to make it turn. When I gave lessons, I always used the analogy of squishing a grape with your shin against the boot tongue. But that's wrong. Tip it. Just get it up on edge and it will turn.

 

Spend a day getting back to basics. Pick a gentle blue square and traverse it edge to edge to edge, just using the downhill ski. Ask someone from the ski school if they can show you a javelin turn, where you lift one ski off the snow and cross it over the turning ski.

 

One of the cool things that Hobart teaches us is that as adult racers, we have to be our own coach. To enjoy the journey, but don't expect it to be a smooth one.

[Ski]

ski999.....

 

Excellent......thanks for the link.

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You bet. Hey, you might want to consider joining us at Sugarbush for the next ASRA race camp in December. Absolutely all levels of skiers are welcome.