burton vapors for sale 159cm

[Seelowchamp]

Used Burton Vapors for sale well below msrp in mint condition! the 08 i'll sell for 500, the 09 for 650, and the 2010 for 800. message me for details. i'll also throw in some stickers and maybe a jacket or pants with full price offer. Or if you want me to send pics of them.

[Tyler]

hahahahaha good luck

[zaldon]

let me know when they are selling for 150

[method9455]

I almost NEVER comment negatively on people trying to sell gear, but I have to in this case.

 

DO NOT BUY THESE BOARDS.

 

1) Those prices are insane. Cut them in half and you are getting closer

 

2) The Vapor is an OK board, but it is what it is. Very light, but not very stiff. It is an intermediate riding board for $900 MSRP. Not to say people can't rip with it (look at Keir go), but if you gave me a choise between a T6 and a Vapor, I'd take the T6. If you gave me a choice between a Custom X and a Vapor, I'd take the Custom X. And there are about 5 or 6 other boards from other manufacturers I would take over it too.

 

3) This guy isn't an established member - sounds like a scam to me. I don't know why he has 3 years worth but normally if he just this years I would chalk him up as a guy from a shop who stole a pro-form and is selling the Vapor under a new name so he doesn't get caught. We had that happen at my shop, guy took a pro form and never came back and we called up Burton to cancel the order (which they did). He was far from the first person to try it.

 

4) When the Burton rep came to teach us about the boards, he totally trashed the Vapor. "You know the guy who comes in driving a Porsche and wearing a Rolex, this is the board for him, you can show him the weight difference and he'll know he has gotten something for his money. Everyone else will know how much he spent. But best of all it is an intermediate board so he will ride well on it." Straight from the horses mouth, you can't make this shit up. We put it up on the wall so everyone could see it when they walked in, but I never pushed it. The rep Burton rep was mostly right, we did sell 2 out of 3 to douche bags with rolexes, but one had a Lamborghini and one had a BMW. The 3rd went at our tent sale for like $350.

[poconoceancity]

Wearing a Rolex makes you a Dbag?

[Dan-]

I'm assuming these are all demo's. selling used demo boards for not even half off is pretty fuckin weak.

[Seelowchamp]

Lets just get a few things straight.

 

1. These vapors are not "demos". I got these from Burton Team riders who are friends of mine. I wouldn't think that

they would be riding "demo" boards. And one of my vapors have graphics that you won't find, anywhere, its a prototype.

 

2. These weren't obtained on a "pro form". The only thing I know about "pro forms" is that snowboard instructors get them from

companys to discount purchases on new gear.

 

3. These boards are faster, lighter, and for the more advanced rider. If you ride pipe, and like to go big and fast, the vapors are

second to none. period. if you think a t-6 even compares to a vapor, your sorely mistaken. i don't care about what some "rep" says,

or some shop owner. YOu have to be a really good rider to utilize what the vapor has to offer. Reps to my knowledge, aren't rippers,

and certainly not the majority of shop owners.

 

4. The shops in this area don't offer the vapors, and if they did, they wouldn't be at the prices I am asking. I would be throwing in all

types of extras too, i.e. goggles, pants, jackets, depending on the offer & size of the person buying it.

 

5. NOt to toot my own horn, but when you ride at a certain level, you really can understand what this board has to offer. Now if your not going

fast, big, and hitting boxexs, rails, big transitions, then your not going to need a board like this.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Seelowchamp

[Seelowchamp]

I almost NEVER comment negatively on people trying to sell gear, but I have to in this case.

 

DO NOT BUY THESE BOARDS.

 

1) Those prices are insane. Cut them in half and you are getting closer

 

2) The Vapor is an OK board, but it is what it is. Very light, but not very stiff. It is an intermediate riding board for $900 MSRP. Not to say people can't rip with it (look at Keir go), but if you gave me a choise between a T6 and a Vapor, I'd take the T6. If you gave me a choice between a Custom X and a Vapor, I'd take the Custom X. And there are about 5 or 6 other boards from other manufacturers I would take over it too.

 

3) This guy isn't an established member - sounds like a scam to me. I don't know why he has 3 years worth but normally if he just this years I would chalk him up as a guy from a shop who stole a pro-form and is selling the Vapor under a new name so he doesn't get caught. We had that happen at my shop, guy took a pro form and never came back and we called up Burton to cancel the order (which they did). He was far from the first person to try it.

 

4) When the Burton rep came to teach us about the boards, he totally trashed the Vapor. "You know the guy who comes in driving a Porsche and wearing a Rolex, this is the board for him, you can show him the weight difference and he'll know he has gotten something for his money. Everyone else will know how much he spent. But best of all it is an intermediate board so he will ride well on it." Straight from the horses mouth, you can't make this shit up. We put it up on the wall so everyone could see it when they walked in, but I never pushed it. The rep Burton rep was mostly right, we did sell 2 out of 3 to douche bags with rolexes, but one had a Lamborghini and one had a BMW. The 3rd went at our tent sale for like $350.

 

 

What shop are you affiliated with? If this board is trash, why does Kevin Pearce and other burton global team riders ride it? Your just a salesman who knows nothing about actually riding the boards you sell. Your post absolutely validates my previous sentence. Your claims about how I have these snowboards are absurd, as well as what your wrote in number 4 of your points. Whatever rep said that should be fired, and you should be out of business for believing it. I feel sorry for whoever goes into whatever shop your affiliated with, and looks for advice in what they should be purchasing. Its funny the irony in this post, your the actual scam! I am just trying to sell some high end boards cheaper than you can get in a store, no wonder your trying to discredit me. Its all good though, keep taking advantage of the people that have no clue that buy stuff from you. Thats the only people that i would imagine purchasing anything from a guy like you. get it together...if you can. and stop hating!

[Dan-]

Lets just get a few things straight.

 

1. These vapors are not "demos". I got these from Burton Team riders who are friends of mine. I wouldn't think that

they would be riding "demo" boards. And one of my vapors have graphics that you won't find, anywhere, its a prototype.

 

2. These weren't obtained on a "pro form". The only thing I know about "pro forms" is that snowboard instructors get them from

companys to discount purchases on new gear.

 

3. These boards are faster, lighter, and for the more advanced rider. If you ride pipe, and like to go big and fast, the vapors are

second to none. period. if you think a t-6 even compares to a vapor, your sorely mistaken. i don't care about what some "rep" says,

or some shop owner. YOu have to be a really good rider to utilize what the vapor has to offer. Reps to my knowledge, aren't rippers,

and certainly not the majority of shop owners.

 

4. The shops in this area don't offer the vapors, and if they did, they wouldn't be at the prices I am asking. I would be throwing in all

types of extras too, i.e. goggles, pants, jackets, depending on the offer & size of the person buying it.

 

5. NOt to toot my own horn, but when you ride at a certain level, you really can understand what this board has to offer. Now if your not going

fast, big, and hitting boxexs, rails, big transitions, then your not going to need a board like this.

 

 

Your hilarious and you "claim" to know what your talking about. keep going, it's really funny.

 

And you couldn't be more wrong with the statement in bold. Alumafly cores don't like big impacts like that.

 

Your knowledge is also very limited. Better hit the books.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Dan-

[nick malozzi]

I'm in no way trying to validate this dude, but I will say this and I hope some people in the PASR community will understand this.

 

Being a REP for any company in any sport does not in any way mean you are awesome at whatever it is your company makes gear for. Typically it means you have been around the sport long enough and networked well enough to get yourself an in somewhere. I admit, if you are around the sport for a long time you are probably pretty decent. Please don't twist my words and think I'm saying REPS suck. That simply isn't true. However, if you think because someone has a job as a REP that means they are good at said sport then you gotta wake up man. Furthermore, if you think that every REP coming in is going to tell it to you as it is (meaning being up front about what boards are good and bad) then again, wake the hell up. In the end most are concerned about how much product they push. Some are going to take the "I'm a cool laid back dude like you" approach, and others may take the "All our boards rip approach, all others suck". No offense to you shop kids out there, but stop looking up to these guys. They are no more "elite" then you are. Take what they say and what gear you see them riding with a grain of salt. The Burton REP that Kevin spoke to may be wrong or he may be right. Either way, he did his job, because Kevs shop prolly pushed a TON more in numbers of boards since the staff wasn't scaring people away pushing a high dollar board. In the end the production cost between models is miniscule so really the numbers are what they care about. Other reps may be totally lost themselves. It sounds to me like the K2 rep out there has a screw or two loose riding a powder specific board at a PA resort when he has access to pretty much their entire line. Anyway, I hope this all makes sense. REPS are salespeople and salespeople care nothing more then the number of boards they sell. If they don't care, then you'll more then likely be meeting a new rep next season.

 

 

Good luck selling this things brah... you should prolly look elsewhere though.

[jordan]

Used Burton Vapors for sale well below msrp in mint condition! the 08 i'll sell for 500, the 09 for 650, and the 2010 for 800. message me for details. i'll also throw in some stickers and maybe a jacket or pants with full price offer. Or if you want me to send pics of them.

so you are

 

you realize that you can get the 09 new anywhere for $50 more than what you are charging for a used board

 

GTFO

Edited October 29, 2009 by jordan

[Seelowchamp]

Your prices are redonkulous..and nobody is gonna purchase from somebody with 13 posts..

 

 

Redonkulous? Really? You apparently aren't aware of what these boards really cost. I understand. Its not like you see them in shops around NEPA, so I can see

why you think the prices might be high.

 

The forum topic was labeled "classified", "have some old gear lying around, sell it here" well i have some old gear lying around, and I was thinking of selling it on

here, since i live near camelback. I apologize for not having cheap gear to sell. I ride high end boards and apparel.

[Seelowchamp]

Your hilarious and you "claim" to know what your talking about. keep going, it's really funny.

 

And you couldn't be more wrong with the statement in bold. Alumafly cores don't like big impacts like that.

 

Your knowledge is also very limited. Better hit the books.

 

 

No cores like big impacts. However if you like good pop, with stability in landings after going really big, or landing lower on a

transition then desired, the vaportech alumafly core can make up for these things and provide support to not wash out and actually ride

away. I have been riding vapors since they came out. I have been riding the 2010 vapors since last year. I also have been snowboarding since

1991. I am mainly a half pipe rider, but ride everthing. When you win nationlals, and compete at a proffessional level, then talk to me, because

I have. HIt the books? I hit the snow, and have been since your were playing in sandboxes.

[nick malozzi]

It is like the a karamatic(i think i just made up a word) balance or something around TTc6 goes bye bye and we gain this guy. Like I said, hope you're ready for attack, and PLEASE stick around.

[Dan-]

Your hilarious and you "claim" to know what your talking about. keep going, it's really funny.

 

And you couldn't be more wrong with the statement in bold. Alumafly cores don't like big impacts like that.

 

Your knowledge is also very limited. Better hit the books.

 

 

No cores like big impacts. However if you like good pop, with stability in landings after going really big, or landing lower on a

transition then desired, the vaportech alumafly core can make up for these things and provide support to not wash out and actually ride

away. I have been riding vapors since they came out. I have been riding the 2010 vapors since last year. I also have been snowboarding since

1991. I am mainly a half pipe rider, but ride everthing. When you win nationlals, and compete at a proffessional level, then talk to me, because

I have. HIt the books? I hit the snow, and have been since your were playing in sandboxes.

 

 

CLAIM!

 

Since your half pipe king. i've won the Verbier freeride comp 8 times in a row.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Dan-

[toast21602]

pics or it didnt happen....

[Glenn]

ame='Seelowchamp' date='29 October 2009 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1256854669' post='243659']

 

 

 

CLAIM!

 

Since your half pipe king. i've won the Verbier freeride comp 8 times in a row.

 

 

With the burton blunt or the twin?

[Dan-]

With the burton blunt or the twin?

 

Burton Mayhem, that board is so rad.

[Glenn]

Eh the dude can ride pipe.

 

Edited October 30, 2009 by Glenn

[zaldon]

Eh the dude can ride pipe.

 

haha got to love the CB mini pipe

[method9455]

 

Your hilarious and you "claim" to know what your talking about. keep going, it's really funny.

 

And you couldn't be more wrong with the statement in bold. Alumafly cores don't like big impacts like that.

 

Your knowledge is also very limited. Better hit the books.

 

 

No cores like big impacts. However if you like good pop, with stability in landings after going really big, or landing lower on a

transition then desired, the vaportech alumafly core can make up for these things and provide support to not wash out and actually ride

away. I have been riding vapors since they came out. I have been riding the 2010 vapors since last year. I also have been snowboarding since

1991. I am mainly a half pipe rider, but ride everthing. When you win nationlals, and compete at a proffessional level, then talk to me, because

I have. HIt the books? I hit the snow, and have been since your were playing in sandboxes.

 

You are probably a better rider than me, but you definitely aren't better at selling boards.

 

Shop carry these boards, my shop has carried these boards for years. We sell them NEW at prices lower than you are selling your USED shit ones. Year after year after year. Your prices are a fucking joke.

 

I have ridden the Vapor, I have ridden the T6, I don't like the Vapor in a straight up comparison between the two and if you add in price, forget it. If your only metric is light weight, then sure the Vapor is the best. But is the only thing it has going for it.

 

If you metric is stiffness, then the Vapor absolutely doesn't win. The reason the Vapor is lighter is because they altered the construction of everything on top of the core. The core and base are basically the same as a T6, and then on top of the core there is less fiberglass in the Vapor. That makes it less durable and less stiff.

 

If you don't believe me on this, go look in the official Burton catalog. The Vapor is rated 6/10 on stiffness, the T6 8/10 and the Custom X 7/10, and the regular Custom is 5/10. So the Vapor and the Custom/Custom X are closer in stiffness than the Vapor and the T6.

 

Your problem is that you are correlated price with performance. For a long time when snowboard companies made boards and put a margin on them, it worked out that the most stiff ones were the most expensive becuase the materials used were more expensive. That has changed and price is connected to a number of factors, materials being one of them but pricing has a lot more to do with segmentation in the market than anything else.

 

I never said reps are smart/good riders whatever. Though a bunch of former ski reps work for my dad as sales reps, and I went on a ski trip with them to Canada once and they were all pretty nasty. Nor are they very smart. But they know how to sell boards or they wouldn't have their job. So when they are telling sales guys who to sell the boards to - they don't get fired for that they get promoted. Telling us who and how to sell the Vapor is exactly what Burton wants them to be doing.

 

If you don't think the design of the Vapor comes from the top down based on a marketing position then you are sadly mistaken. It fits the mold of a premium product aimed at the most affluent - not the best - segment of the market to a T. You find this in cars, boats, golf clubs, everything. It has a "feature" that is really noticeable, gives you that "wow" feeling when you hold it in the store. It also MAKES THE PERSON BUYING IT A BETTER RIDER. Largely the people spending the most money at the store are NOT the best riders/skiers. Ever. They're the guys going to Vail over Christmas week and maybe they'll go to Utah for a week later in the year. They buy intermediate stuff and don't blink at prices. There are a whole lot of skis aimed at this market and now that snowboards have matured, Burton is getting in on the act. Ride has been in this area for a while with their top 2 boards. Burton is expanding here as well.

 

The guy who comes in and tells me he is riding 2-3 times a week because he has a season pass somewhere and rides 60% park and is looking to replace his park board he snapped in half - that guy is nasty at riding and DOES blink at the price. And that guy is never buying a Vapor. He doesn't want one, and I'm not going to try and push one on him.

 

It doesn't make it a BAD board, it just makes it a board that most clearly aligns with intermediate riders. It is a medium flexing board. Just because some pros rock it doesn't make it an "advanced" board. It's not like an "advanced" rider can't ride an "intermediate" board, but I'm sure if you put an intermediate rider on some stiff advanced board, they are going to hate it because they won't be able to turn.

 

As an example, the Cartels are clearly a more advanced binding than the Custom, yet Shaun White rides on Custom bindings. That doesn't make them "advanced" bindings, they are aimed at beginner/intermediate riders, he just specifically likes them better because of the flex.

 

The Vapor is most clearly descendant from the P1 binding, a soft intermediate binding that has some extra features and is inordinately priced compared to the extra features. They feel soft and plus in the store and it seems worth the money, but if you try them out your boot (hell even the way you lace up) has more to do with comfort than the gel in the binding. The P1 is too heavy though so it didn't go with the Vapor and they made the C02 bindings that fit the style, but that whole category of thought is where the Vapor came from.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Kevin.

[nick malozzi]

You are probably a better rider than me, but you definitely aren't better at selling boards.

 

Shop carry these boards, my shop has carried these boards for years. We sell them NEW at prices lower than you are selling your USED shit ones. Year after year after year. Your prices are a fucking joke.

 

I have ridden the Vapor, I have ridden the T6, I don't like the Vapor in a straight up comparison between the two and if you add in price, forget it. If your only metric is light weight, then sure the Vapor is the best. But is the only thing it has going for it.

 

If you metric is stiffness, then the Vapor absolutely doesn't win. The reason the Vapor is lighter is because they altered the construction of everything on top of the core. The core and base are basically the same as a T6, and then on top of the core there is less fiberglass in the Vapor. That makes it less durable and less stiff.

 

If you don't believe me on this, go look in the official Burton catalog. The Vapor is rated 6/10 on stiffness, the T6 8/10 and the Custom X 7/10, and the regular Custom is 5/10. So the Vapor and the Custom/Custom X are closer in stiffness than the Vapor and the T6.

 

Your problem is that you are correlated price with performance. For a long time when snowboard companies made boards and put a margin on them, it worked out that the most stiff ones were the most expensive becuase the materials used were more expensive. That has changed and price is connected to a number of factors, materials being one of them but pricing has a lot more to do with segmentation in the market than anything else.

 

I never said reps are smart/good riders whatever. Though a bunch of former ski reps work for my dad as sales reps, and I went on a ski trip with them to Canada once and they were all pretty nasty. Nor are they very smart. But they know how to sell boards or they wouldn't have their job. So when they are telling sales guys who to sell the boards to - they don't get fired for that they get promoted. Telling us who and how to sell the Vapor is exactly what Burton wants them to be doing.

 

If you don't think the design of the Vapor comes from the top down based on a marketing position then you are sadly mistaken. It fits the mold of a premium product aimed at the most affluent - not the best - segment of the market to a T. You find this in cars, boats, golf clubs, everything. It has a "feature" that is really noticeable, gives you that "wow" feeling when you hold it in the store. It also MAKES THE PERSON BUYING IT A BETTER RIDER. Largely the people spending the most money at the store are NOT the best riders/skiers. Ever. They're the guys going to Vail over Christmas week and maybe they'll go to Utah for a week later in the year. They buy intermediate stuff and don't blink at prices. There are a whole lot of skis aimed at this market and now that snowboards have matured, Burton is getting in on the act. Ride has been in this area for a while with their top 2 boards. Burton is expanding here as well.

 

The guy who comes in and tells me he is riding 2-3 times a week because he has a season pass somewhere and rides 60% park and is looking to replace his park board he snapped in half - that guy is nasty at riding and DOES blink at the price. And that guy is never buying a Vapor. He doesn't want one, and I'm not going to try and push one on him.

 

It doesn't make it a BAD board, it just makes it a board that most clearly aligns with intermediate riders. It is a medium flexing board. Just because some pros rock it doesn't make it an "advanced" board. It's not like an "advanced" rider can't ride an "intermediate" board, but I'm sure if you put an intermediate rider on some stiff advanced board, they are going to hate it because they won't be able to turn.

 

As an example, the Cartels are clearly a more advanced binding than the Custom, yet Shaun White rides on Custom bindings. That doesn't make them "advanced" bindings, they are aimed at beginner/intermediate riders, he just specifically likes them better because of the flex.

 

The Vapor is most clearly descendant from the P1 binding, a soft intermediate binding that has some extra features and is inordinately priced compared to the extra features. They feel soft and plus in the store and it seems worth the money, but if you try them out your boot (hell even the way you lace up) has more to do with comfort than the gel in the binding. The P1 is too heavy though so it didn't go with the Vapor and they made the C02 bindings that fit the style, but that whole category of thought is where the Vapor came from.

Re there clif notes available for your posts? Thanks in advance.

[method9455]

Re there clif notes available for your posts? Thanks in advance.

 

I get pissed when someone says I don't know what I'm talking about when I definitely do.

 

I want to talk about selling boards. He wants to talk about being a better rider than me.

 

This thread is about selling boards and he doesn't know jack about the board he is selling compared to other boards, how to properly price it, or why Burton makes the Vapor.

[Seelowchamp]

You are probably a better rider than me, but you definitely aren't better at selling boards.

 

Shop carry these boards, my shop has carried these boards for years. We sell them NEW at prices lower than you are selling your USED shit ones. Year after year after year. Your prices are a fucking joke.

 

I have ridden the Vapor, I have ridden the T6, I don't like the Vapor in a straight up comparison between the two and if you add in price, forget it. If your only metric is light weight, then sure the Vapor is the best. But is the only thing it has going for it.

 

If you metric is stiffness, then the Vapor absolutely doesn't win. The reason the Vapor is lighter is because they altered the construction of everything on top of the core. The core and base are basically the same as a T6, and then on top of the core there is less fiberglass in the Vapor. That makes it less durable and less stiff.

 

If you don't believe me on this, go look in the official Burton catalog. The Vapor is rated 6/10 on stiffness, the T6 8/10 and the Custom X 7/10, and the regular Custom is 5/10. So the Vapor and the Custom/Custom X are closer in stiffness than the Vapor and the T6.

 

Your problem is that you are correlated price with performance. For a long time when snowboard companies made boards and put a margin on them, it worked out that the most stiff ones were the most expensive becuase the materials used were more expensive. That has changed and price is connected to a number of factors, materials being one of them but pricing has a lot more to do with segmentation in the market than anything else.

 

I never said reps are smart/good riders whatever. Though a bunch of former ski reps work for my dad as sales reps, and I went on a ski trip with them to Canada once and they were all pretty nasty. Nor are they very smart. But they know how to sell boards or they wouldn't have their job. So when they are telling sales guys who to sell the boards to - they don't get fired for that they get promoted. Telling us who and how to sell the Vapor is exactly what Burton wants them to be doing.

 

If you don't think the design of the Vapor comes from the top down based on a marketing position then you are sadly mistaken. It fits the mold of a premium product aimed at the most affluent - not the best - segment of the market to a T. You find this in cars, boats, golf clubs, everything. It has a "feature" that is really noticeable, gives you that "wow" feeling when you hold it in the store. It also MAKES THE PERSON BUYING IT A BETTER RIDER. Largely the people spending the most money at the store are NOT the best riders/skiers. Ever. They're the guys going to Vail over Christmas week and maybe they'll go to Utah for a week later in the year. They buy intermediate stuff and don't blink at prices. There are a whole lot of skis aimed at this market and now that snowboards have matured, Burton is getting in on the act. Ride has been in this area for a while with their top 2 boards. Burton is expanding here as well.

 

The guy who comes in and tells me he is riding 2-3 times a week because he has a season pass somewhere and rides 60% park and is looking to replace his park board he snapped in half - that guy is nasty at riding and DOES blink at the price. And that guy is never buying a Vapor. He doesn't want one, and I'm not going to try and push one on him.

 

It doesn't make it a BAD board, it just makes it a board that most clearly aligns with intermediate riders. It is a medium flexing board. Just because some pros rock it doesn't make it an "advanced" board. It's not like an "advanced" rider can't ride an "intermediate" board, but I'm sure if you put an intermediate rider on some stiff advanced board, they are going to hate it because they won't be able to turn.

 

As an example, the Cartels are clearly a more advanced binding than the Custom, yet Shaun White rides on Custom bindings. That doesn't make them "advanced" bindings, they are aimed at beginner/intermediate riders, he just specifically likes them better because of the flex.

 

The Vapor is most clearly descendant from the P1 binding, a soft intermediate binding that has some extra features and is inordinately priced compared to the extra features. They feel soft and plus in the store and it seems worth the money, but if you try them out your boot (hell even the way you lace up) has more to do with comfort than the gel in the binding. The P1 is too heavy though so it didn't go with the Vapor and they made the C02 bindings that fit the style, but that whole category of thought is where the Vapor came from.

 

 

 

So are you going to buy the board or not? I haven't paid for a snowboard or snowboard gear since 1991. What do I know about pricing them? Not a whole lot. What I do know, is

that there is no other board I would rather be riding. Could I interest you in some mark viii gear or perhaps an audex coat. Make me an offer shop boy!!!

Edited November 4, 2009 by Seelowchamp

[Dan-]

So are you going to buy the board or not? I haven't paid for a snowboard or snowboard gear since 1991. What do I know about pricing them? Not a whole lot. What I do know, is

that there is no other board I would rather be riding. Could I interest you in some mark viii gear or perhaps an audex coat. Make me an offer shop boy!!!

 

 

So you started snowboarding in 91 and were instantly hooked up enough were you didn't have to buy gear. Damn kid, legit as fuck obviously.