defining snow conditions in trail reports

[Robert2]

Its full tilt into the ski season and we have a few ways we have been describing

the snow we found at each ski resort.

Some of us do not say it the same way as others and I keep having remarks posted in my trip reports that say things like "DON'T CALL IT POWDER" and other directives, as if any one

description could be the perfect decription conveying knowledge to other people who may

decide to come or bail out on a ski trip based in our trip reports.

Is that runon sentence the record yet?

 

My trip reports will state what I found. Exactly what I found on the hills I visit.

I have no reason to slant my reports to be anything but truthful.

If its ice, its ice.

So what.

That just means the newbies should wear roller blade armor and get out there any go ski.

If its real fluffy brand new snow... it could be very wet and sticky and VERY slow riding.

So again, brand new lessons , never ever seen the snow, kinds of people can go play and not get hurt.

So go ski. ... and bring a friend who never skied before.

Then we have the various man made groomed conditions that nobody seems to be able to agree how to describe.

So lets start with solid ice.

I call this BLUE ICE.

Its sort of the same thing you make in your freezer to make cold drinks.

Blue ice has no features, no grooves, no detectable man made markings.

Just a flat ice skating rink type of ice.

BLUE ICE can be the absolute best most fun ride you ever have on a snowboard if you learn to carve by riding on the metal edges of the board instead of keeping the snowboard flat on the snow.

Since there are control issues with blue ice there are MANY skiers and boarders that just declare this surface impossible to ride and just stay home.

I can not SKI on BLUE ICE but I can snowboard all day on BLUE ICE.

So if you can't ride BLUE ICE then go take a lesson or 3 and you may find that

once you can ride BLUE ICE you never will NOT go play on the snow because someone said it

was "icey".

The cause of BLUE ICE is from the snow being in a warm wet slushy state then getting hit with a fast freeze.

This is a VERY common event that happens at Big Boulder during warmer winters.

As the sun sets and that last 10 degree temperature drop happens we get instant solidification

of the snow that may have been nice and soft all day.

BUT

since Big Boulder opens ONLY for night skiing they manage to run their groomers in the afternoon RIGHT UP UNTIL opening the lifts.

So even when it freezes there's a nice ridable surface.

The key here is the grooming.... grooming closer to the time YOU the rider hits the hill.

 

Next we have GLACIER ice.

This is that last six inches of snow near the base hill grass that has leaves and mud mixed into it. Sometimes when thats ALL thats left and they can't groom anymore we get spots of dead leaves and mud mixed with solid ice that has melting and mixing features in it.

This is usually very bad to ski on and is only in the last week before resorts close for good.

 

We just don't get enough snow here to rely on natural snowfall to keep a ski resort open so

the only thing you can do to stay open is make the snow and groom it every day before customers

play on it.

It seems to me there are a few ideas of how to make this surface worth the price of a lift ticket.

Jack Frost... seems to manage to grind up this ice and make a snow cone granular surface thats sometimes fine like chalk or thick like snow cones we eat.

Sometimes its dry, sometimes its wet, but its usually an inch or 2 deep EVERYWHERE.

This stuff kicks up a rooster tail when you turn or sprays big time when you do a hockey stop

on skis.

Now I've been calling this stuff POWDER and a few people tell me I should call it SUGAR or SWEET n LOW when its real fine like chalk.

My point here is that this is the stuff you WANT to ski on.

It has great control... doesn't break you if you fall in it like BLUE ICE and

I have been and will call this stuff groomed powder.

 

Sometimes the grinding to make powder can't happen and groomers cut groves we

call groomed corduroy.

A lot of people hate corduroy because its very fast and very much like riding BLUE ICE.

BUT

because it has those grooves we have much better control than just plain blue ice.

AGAIN

if you can't ride on it...take a real lesson from a PRO.

 

So I'm sure everyone will have their 2 cents to say about how to describe the snow ..

feel free to speak up here.

I just wrote this so newcomers will know what I mean when I describe a surface.

 

THIS IS NOT THE YOUR MOUNTAIN SUCKS AT GROOMING THREAD.

 

I'm not saying Blue can't groom for shit here. You BLUE lifers already said that a dozens times.

 

I'm not comparing OTHER mountains to BLUE.

You all know I do 50 days a year on Jack Frost hills so I have a real basis to make my descriptions accurate and not just slinging bullshit.

I don't say "I GOT IT FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE". I only say what I experienced.

 

Now what I'd really like to see is a real snowmaker and groomer from BLUE step up to the plate here and explain how they decide what condition to leave the hill in as final product.

Its the groomers manufacturing the ski hills here and its really up to them when it comes to quality control.... and when its OK to make BLUE ICE in beginner areas on the heaviest visitor days of the year...Friday nights.

 

I'll make video next week of the VALLEY SKI SCHOOL beginner learning area at the bottom of the hill near the carpet lift and drop a water bottle on the snow to show if it sticks in snow

or BOUNCES on BLUE ICE like it did Friday night.

[DiMe]

So I'm sure everyone will have their 2 cents to say about how to describe the snow ..

feel free to speak up here.

I just wrote this so newcomers will know what I mean when I describe a surface.

 

 

I enjoy reading your reports Robert and I will definitely be paying Jackson Frost a visit or two this season when the conditions are nice and we can make some turns together; although; sometimes the way you describe the snow conditions baffles me. Here's my 2 cents

 

"Blue Ice" I dunno why ya call it Blue because smooth ice to me is just smooth ice it's not blue colored in anyway. So I would just say its smooth icy conditions get your edges tuned if you plan to go out lol. I think riding on ice can be dangerous no matter how good of a skier or rider you are. If you hit ice unexpected on a steep as you carve hard, your edge is not holding unless its sharp enough to slice an orange. Your going down if you can't balance flatboard in a boardslide like motion until your over it and back on to edge able snow. You don't run into this situation on easier trails because the riding is much more straight forward and less technical than ungroomed steeps filled with bumps rollers and other random drops. Granted none of the steeps in PA are challenging without a little ice in the mix .

 

"GLACIER ice" If your talking about muddy snow with leaves in it, I wouldn't call it ice that's confusing it's just dirty spring snow. If it's frozen its frozen corn or frozen spring snow.

 

"Powder" Power is mainly natural snowfall. I associate powder snow with that floating above the snow feeling you get while your a bit in the backseat holding your nose up above the snow. The soft stuff ya get from nice grooming is just sugar or sweet n low as some like to call it not even close to powder. Occasionally people say conditions are Man Made pow and that would be when they run the snowguns w/ very low water to air ratio and they condition with soft dry snow much like natural powder. You'll typically find this when a trail first opens after a super cold night of snow making. Man made pow is not easy to make, it depends a lot on the gun you are using, your water temp, & the outside temp has to be very low.

Edited January 17, 2010 by DiMeThIcOnE

[zaldon]

R2 i couldn't finish reading your post because it was to tiring on my eyes to keep going down a line every sentence, but what i did get from it was that you call absolutely everything ice. which is worst the identification of snow conditions i have ever heard. what you are calling ice is probably hard pack, and you just need to learn how to snowboard.

[AtomicSkier]

R2 i couldn't finish reading your post because it was to tiring on my eyes to keep going down a line every sentence, but what i did get from it was that you call absolutely everything ice. which is worst the identification of snow conditions i have ever heard. what you are calling ice is probably hard pack, and you just need to learn how to snowboard.

 

oh no you didn't!

[toast21602]

OMG..I don't have the energy to read this right now..I will revisit and respond to this post later in the evening and give some of my descriptions..

 

 

yes

[Justo8484]

i could be wrong, but i think there's a general consensus that unless it's falling from the clouds, it's sure as hell not powder. and robert, you only going to blue on a friday night is not a fair judge of their snow conditions. i've gone up to boulder friday nights (not a direct comparison since frost isnt open at night) and everything there has been just as bad as the worst of the worst that you experienced at blue. this year especially, conditions have been really good at blue. yesterday was the first day this year that i really really needed a ski with sharp edges. up until then, i've had no trouble carving turns on my park skis with edges rounded off and sticking out of the base.

[Robert2]

i could be wrong, but i think there's a general consensus that unless it's falling from the clouds, it's sure as hell not powder. and robert, you only going to blue on a friday night is not a fair judge of their snow conditions. i've gone up to boulder friday nights (not a direct comparison since frost isnt open at night) and everything there has been just as bad as the worst of the worst that you experienced at blue. this year especially, conditions have been really good at blue. yesterday was the first day this year that i really really needed a ski with sharp edges. up until then, i've had no trouble carving turns on my park skis with edges rounded off and sticking out of the base.

 

Not powder unless its from the sky really doesn't cut it in my book.

There has been plenty of days where the surface has been really nice soft powder that

everyone agrees it was nice to ski on .... and it didn't come from new fallen snow.

I SAID THIS WAS NOT to compare each mountain, just to define what we want to hear people call conditions this winter. I agree that plenty of days there has been boiler plate ice at Big Boulder. BUT this thread was not to say which mountain has ice or snow or slush today, tomorrow

or any time. I wasn't trying to compare BLUE to BB. But since you brought it up...

you just said yesterday was the first day this year that you really needed a ski with sharp edges. Why ? Detail why. Define the snow you saw out there and what you recommend best rides it.

 

 

By the way. ZALDON is now officially in my ignore list.

I've not once heard ZALDON say anything constructive so he's gone now from my viewing.

[Robert2]

Powder is light and dry snow that falls from the sky..wet powder is am oxymoron..occasionally ski areas blow really good manmade snow.. chalky packed powder

frozen cord we get is hardpack

frozen granuler

 

Spring snow mashed potatoes..

others crud..when crud refreezes and gets loose.

it creates sugar snow or mad sweet and low..

the snow is like sugar or sand.

boilerplate..

applesauce.

creamed corn.

fast snow and as more corn collects and gets wet..applesauce

manky.. warm.. like glue...sticky and grabby..

 

 

YES...THIS is what I was looking for , some ways to label the surface.

[RootDKJ]

By the way. ZALDON is now officially in my ignore list.

I've not once heard ZALDON say anything constructive so he's gone now from my viewing.

 

Zaldon is an ok dude. I got to ride with him a few times last season. To each their own.

[Robert2]

Zaldon is an ok dude. I got to ride with him a few times last season. To each their own.

Sure he's an OK dude... but every time he adds anything to my threads its some kind of dig

or poorly constructed advice so I'm not having any more of it.

[zaldon]

By the way. ZALDON is now officially in my ignore list.

I've not once heard ZALDON say anything constructive so he's gone now from my viewing.

Sure he's an OK dude... but every time he adds anything to my threads its some kind of dig

or poorly constructed advice so I'm not having any more of it.

How many more times is this guy going to contradict himself?

[Justo8484]

Not powder unless its from the sky really doesn't cut it in my book.

There has been plenty of days where the surface has been really nice soft powder that

everyone agrees it was nice to ski on .... and it didn't come from new fallen snow.

I SAID THIS WAS NOT to compare each mountain, just to define what we want to hear people call conditions this winter. I agree that plenty of days there has been boiler plate ice at Big Boulder. BUT this thread was not to say which mountain has ice or snow or slush today, tomorrow

or any time. I wasn't trying to compare BLUE to BB. But since you brought it up...

you just said yesterday was the first day this year that you really needed a ski with sharp edges. Why ? Detail why. Define the snow you saw out there and what you recommend best rides it.

 

 

By the way. ZALDON is now officially in my ignore list.

I've not once heard ZALDON say anything constructive so he's gone now from my viewing.

 

 

if you're not trying to compare one area to the next, why didn't you put this in the general forum instead of in the blue forum? i'm not saying you can't have nice manmade snow, but manmade snow is not pow. regardless of how good it is, the water content and density of it is not the same as what falls from the sky. 6" of manmade rides nothing like 6" of natural snow. 6" of manmade is not boot deep when you're making turns in it. i needed edges at blue on sunday because everything got soft on saturday then refroze saturday night. it was not icy for the most part, just refrozen firm snow. anything that doesnt slide park rails worked fine, even if it didn't have 3

[Robert2]

if you're not trying to compare one area to the next, why didn't you put this in the general forum instead of in the blue forum? i'm not saying you can't have nice manmade snow, but manmade snow is not pow. regardless of how good it is, the water content and density of it is not the same as what falls from the sky. 6" of manmade rides nothing like 6" of natural snow. 6" of manmade is not boot deep when you're making turns in it. i needed edges at blue on sunday because everything got soft on saturday then refroze saturday night. it was not icy for the most part, just refrozen firm snow. anything that doesnt slide park rails worked fine, even if it didn't have 3

[ColoradoHigh]

Robert2..why don't you ski Blue on a weekend morning with the Blue crew when conditions are better...

You know Blue regrooms Paradise, Switchback and Lazy Mile around 4PM..

 

he only skis razors and challenge cause hes badass...

[Robert2]

Robert2..why don't you ski Blue on a weekend morning with the Blue crew when conditions are better...

You know Blue regrooms Paradise, Switchback and Lazy Mile around 4PM..

I have midweek passes and take the bus.... which does not run on weekends.

Been that way for 4 years.

So I don't go weekends

BUT

if my wife learns then she will be inclined to want to go weekends because she still works

a day job. We go to BLUE Friday nights because its on her way home from work.

If JF was on her way home from work I wouldn't ever get to BLUE at all.

If she gets hurt she gets 2 days to heal before Monday work again.

[Schif]

Everyone seems to call snow something a little different and everyone on this board realizes why the Eskimeaux (Ben Franklin's spelling) have 100 words for it. I don't think there really needs to be a firm consensus on what we call different conditions as long as its understood.

 

Whether I call the stuff at the end of the season "hip hop pocono slop" or "coarse grains of ice loosely suspended in a liquid medium" you know what its going to be like on the hill that day.

[OutCold]

I never realized how harsh R2 is...dang....

 

....I've tended to adopt GSS's snow nomenclature things like mad sweet 'n low, mashed potatoes, etc....it works pretty well

[Robert2]

I see your reasoning but Monday or Tuesday nigts would be better nights to learn as there are a fraction of the people on the slopes..Are you ever gonna free-ski at Blue or are you only going to be there to teach your wife?? Get her a hot chocolate and take a few runs with the Blue crew!!!

Yea... fraction of the people on other days..... I know... but she isn't going to be able to

wake up the next morning for school if we wipe her out snowboarding on a Monday night so thats not going to happen.

 

I will get to free ski at Blue this year on weekdays without her.

Its just that this is the startup of the season and it took some time to get everything in place for her.

I got a locker at Blue so I don't have to haul my board on the bus so now all I have to do is get there.

Blue has commonly been 5 or 10 degrees warmer than Jack Frost so I'll be watching weather this winter like a hawk and planning my solo Blue day trips around the coldest days.

Checking out Tuesday and Wednesday weather shows tonight below freezing temps at JF all the way to 11AM and 36 degrees at JF at 3PM while Blue will be warmer than freezing most of the night and high as 42 at 3 PM.

The next day...wednesday has JF in the 20s and still under 32 degrees while BLue shows

as 38 degrees.

I just would not plan a bus trip to free ride on ungroomed warm stickies and I can only hope that those warm temperatures causes enough melt to make the surface real wet and slick or real wet and slushy slick for whoever does get a chance to ride at Blue the next 2 days.

Nothing worse than gluey sticky warm snow to grab at your knees and ankles. Its the only condition that I walk away from. You guys know me... 5 degrees or 50 degree.... I always go

out rain or shine.

[Robert2]

I never realized how harsh R2 is...dang....

 

....I've tended to adopt GSS's snow nomenclature things like mad sweet 'n low, mashed potatoes, etc....it works pretty well

Yea...well... I must getting cantankerous on my old age.

My kids have all grown up and moved out and my dogs all died off so

the last thing I'm gonna give a shit about is anything Zaldon says.

Sometimes I think you guys think I'm some 15 year old kid.

[toast21602]

i'll be at blue tomorrow afternoon robert2.

[zaldon]

Yea...well... I must getting cantankerous on my old age.

My kids have all grown up and moved out and my dogs all died off so

the last thing I'm gonna give a shit about is anything Zaldon says.

Sometimes I think you guys think I'm some 15 year old kid.

haha, The fact that what i say to you got you fired up proves that you give a shit about it.

[Johnny Law]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARXfQzfl9EQ

 

Shit, I was away and almost missed this important and informative thread.

[phillycore]

There's only really two kinds of conditions I'm worried about....

 

Skiable and non- skiable

 

other than that... call it whatever the fuck you want to call it.....

[Robert2]

There's only really two kinds of conditions I'm worried about....

Skiable and non- skiable

other than that... call it whatever the fuck you want to call it.....

What would non-skiable be to you?

The only condition that I walk away from is warm sticky snow that grabs the board...like as if you were tripping over wires ankle high.

We get that in spring.. late March and rarely mid season.

The kicker there is one day it can be sticky and the next day ..another warm day..it can be real wet and slick and fast and great to ride.... so I don't NOT go on Tuesday if Monday was sticky.

Not everyone can ride solid ice and wants to know...is it soft...is it snow..is it

dusty powder over groomed ice...etc.

So one man's skiable is another man's white ribbon of death.

[method9455]

What would non-skiable be to you?

The only condition that I walk away from is warm sticky snow that grabs the board...like as if you were tripping over wires ankle high.

We get that in spring.. late March and rarely mid season.

The kicker there is one day it can be sticky and the next day ..another warm day..it can be real wet and slick and fast and great to ride.... so I don't NOT go on Tuesday if Monday was sticky.

Not everyone can ride solid ice and wants to know...is it soft...is it snow..is it

dusty powder over groomed ice...etc.

So one man's skiable is another man's white ribbon of death.

 

The soft snow that is grabby - if you use warm temperature wax instead of all-temp you can get through it at normal speed. I don't know how much your tune your gear but I do it often enough that come March I switch waxes and I actually really enjoy those warm weather days.