Skierforever: "Ski racing is dying out"

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for now is he training gates or will they have a coach for him to do FS with?

[Papasteeze]

for now is he training gates or will they have a coach for him to do FS with?

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Only gate training at this time, but who knows, someone has to start it up somewhere - it all starts with a desire to GIT-R DUN!!

[skigurl]

thats awesome

hope he has fun and gets a FS team going

[Ski]

The CAT team is barely tolerated and thrown small bones of 1 hr. on Rocket...CAT's are seen as a pain-in-the-*ss program, not as customers.

 

I think it's mostly 'Dude's fault; I'm pretty sure they have a folder on him in the office.

 

The bright side? The Elk team has to rent a slope for races. That seems like the ultimate F U to a race program.

[skidude]

The CAT team is barely tolerated and thrown small bones of 1 hr. on Rocket...CAT's are seen as a pain-in-the-*ss program, not as customers.

 

I think it's mostly 'Dude's fault; I'm pretty sure they have a folder on him in the office.

 

The bright side? The Elk team has to rent a slope for races. That seems like the ultimate F U to a race program.

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At elk atleast on the trail maps it says that there race trail may be closed because of races.

 

They were going after me a little this summer I think...I saw the file...Only about 50 papers in it about me

[Ski]

Papa:

 

What exactly do you want from CB? I'm honestly not clear about it. Just a thank you? I've known Gus, mostly just professionally when he was a teacher, for a dozen years, and I can tell you that he prefers management to keep their distance. Most of the USSA race coaches that I know seem to feel the same way.

 

JohnnyP, any input?

 

As a parent, I'd want great coaching, access to be able to talk with the head coach, and management that allows slope space for training and races. Who really gives a crap if management is friendly? Just give racers a place to train.

 

My 2 cents...

[Ski]

I saw the file...Only about 50 papers in it about me

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Then you know you are on double-secret probation?

[Papasteeze]

Papa:

What exactly do you want from CB? I'm honestly not clear about it. Just a thank you?

 

As a parent, I'd want great coaching, access to be able to talk with the head coach, and management that allows slope space for training and races. Who really gives a crap if management is friendly? Just give racers a place to train.

 

My 2 cents...

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Volunteers begging for more volunteers while the race director explains why certain things couldn't be done because it was too expensive. We were told that we were expected to pay for (3) $20 vouchers to the Brewery. Resell them or give them away. The Cat team makes $4 a peice. Where is the CB cafeteria in that?

 

A simple thank-you showing support would be common place expectation.

 

One lousy bill board for the season would pay for all the FIS fencing. These guys are selling $1 dollar pins to try and raise chump change that could be paid in the blink of an eye compared to other expenditures. Would CB care if the CAT team just up and left? Probably not.. Maybe I have a lot to learn - It is my opinion that it just doesn't seem right.

 

It is my opinion that there is no support because they know that the racers will raise thier own revenue and they get tickets plus plus plus.. Hey - its a business for them.. Right? How about, I expect a 5% kickback to finish funding PASEF consider it a group season pass discount!! Take one billboard and buy everyone Ski jackets. that will get tons more exposure right to the demographic they should be hitting in my opinion. I could go on, but I won't. We have a quarter of a trail and a cell block to meet in.

 

I have been to 3 events since the close of last season. The general managers were in attendance at all of those events which were miniscule in revenue generation comparitively.

 

Yeah - A simple thanks or nod of appreciation would have satisfied me. At least I wouldn't be so irked.

 

Ok - I'm done with that rant for now.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Papasteeze

[Ski]

Volunteers begging for more volunteers while the race director explains why  certain things couldn't be done because it was too expensive.  We were told that we were expected to pay for (3) $20 vouchers to the Brewery.  Resell them or give them away. The Cat team makes $4 a peice.  Where is the CB cafeteria in that? 

 

A simple thank-you showing support would be common place expectation.

 

One lousy bill board for the season would pay for all the FIS fencing.  These guys are selling $1 dollar pins to try and raise chump change that could be paid in the blink of an eye compared to other expenditures. Would CB care if the CAT team just up and left? Probably not..  Maybe I have a lot to learn - It is my opinion that it just doesn't seem right.

 

It is my opinion that there is no support because they know that the racers will raise thier own revenue and they get tickets plus plus plus..  Hey - its a business for them..  Right?  How about, I expect a 5% kickback to finish funding PASEF consider it a group season pass discount!!  Take one billboard and buy everyone Ski jackets. that will get tons more exposure right to the demographic they should be hitting in my opinion. I could go on, but I won't. We have a quarter of a trail and a cell block to meet in.

 

I have been to 3 events since the close of last season. The general managers were in attendance at all of those events which were miniscule in revenue generation comparitively. 

 

Yeah - A simple thanks or nod of appreciation would have satisfied me. At least I wouldn't be so irked.

 

 

My experience has been that most race parents are pretty lame when it comes to volunteering. They get all gung ho, then when it comes time, they get really hard to reach. As a PA Cup race Starter, Corchnoy gave me a list of names and numbers to staff a race. I had about a 25% success rate.

 

I think that the lack of support from management is the price being paid for the privledge of remaining autonomous.

 

I guess I'm still puzzled by your stance. Firstly, it's just money. If a kid can't afford the program, there is a "scholarship" option. There's nothing cheap about ski racing. But you can't even put a price on slope access. Having Rocket or Cliffy roped off for practice is the hill I'd pick to die on, so to speak.

 

It's just my opinion, but I think that if you bitch about everything, you'll get nothing. And if you come together as a single, loud voice, perhaps you can get something that's worth far more than a few hundred bucks.

 

There are two main reasons why PA kids being sent to post-season finish dead last up north: they only ski two days a week and they basically train on greens and blues. PARA kids don't suffer from poverty and generally have much higher family incomes than New England kids.

[sibhusky]

I had similar luck in getting CAT parents to be gatekeepers. We had to rely on parents from other teams to help out. Most of the parents have this attitude that they paid for the training and that's the end of it. The don't understand the level of commitment needed for a successful program.

 

We have much more active parents here at our new team, but the advantage is it's a small town with a skiing history. Even so, the main fundraisers are the people who grew up here and have the contacts. Fortunately, the mountain DOES support the "harvesting" of volunteers at the races by not only giving gatekeepers an actual ticket for the day they gatekeep (no bonus to season passholders with that one) but ALSO give a transferable voucher GOOD FOR A YEAR to gatekeepers that stay the entire day. Consequently, there is no shortage of gatekeepers. Not all the mountains here do that and they suffer the consequences.

 

At the beginning of the season there is a meeting where all the finances are laid out. The shortfall between training fees and needed budget is identified. Events are planned to cover this deficit. And it is HUGE. Do you know why? Because the fee is only about half the expenses. We not only pay the mountain for the coaches' salaries, but we SUBSIDIZE a higher salary beyond the mountain's salary (they work like the government, i.e., an instructor is an instructor, no special salaries for race coaches) under the table. We also pay for someone to run the lifts at night (there is no night skiing during the week here -- we have to make special arrangements). We also have to pay for coaches to travel and eat and stay overnight at the races since they are all so far away -- that hits us for the individual race as it occurs. The four kids who went to Chile had to pay for the coach's costs as well as their own. All of this is big bucks. So, we have a scholarship fund as well to help those athletes who can't cover a trip to Chile. And two of those kids are now on their way to Austria for more training.

 

Needless to say, the MOUNTAIN doesn't cover any of this stuff, the parents do. The mountain supports us by allowing us to pay what we owe them a bit on the slow side. But basically, the SEF (ski education foundation for you non-racers) spends most of its time worrying about money. Two of the biggest fundraising parents are REAL ESTATE brokers. They meet the rich people as they help with buying and selling of the vacant trophy homes around here and seem to have side agreements going that end up benefiting the SEF. Some of these rich people like the idea that they are possibly helping the next big Olympic star I guess. And given the rep of the coach and the four kids who got to go train with the US team, it could actually happen. Success breeds success. But it takes a major commitment on the parents to SUPPORT the team and DEMAND outstanding coaches -- even if they have to find and hire them on their own. After Paul Mahre (a brother of the ones you've heard of) left, they spent two years looking for a replacement.

 

I think what CAT parents need to do is contact other ski teams outside the Pocono region that are power houses and find out what they do to succeed. And they personally need to commit their time and efforts to the program instead of handing over the training fee and washing their hands of it. The only alternative is fully funding the REAL bill for a successful team right out of their own pockets.

[skimom]

A lot of the CB mums don't ski well enough to get down Cliffy to be a gate keeper. And they are often the ones on the scene. Last year CB started recruiting ahead of time, by notifying the J3 parents that they would be expected to help. I think it worked a bit better - But, this was due to the efforts of highly motivated parents. Unfortunately, these parents get so overtaxed that they burn out and don't return.

[Papasteeze]

Ski999 and Sib! Thank you very much for your insights and experiences, that gives me a lot to think about. My knee-jerk reactions and subsequent posts are exactly that. Bare with me, while I get the rants outa my system and then, hopefully, refocus the energies towards something more productive and positive.

[SteveStepp]

yea, the NEWSCHOOL MOVEMENT has already begun and pretty much taken over

 

im happy about that

[sibhusky]

A lot of the CB mums don't ski well enough to get down Cliffy to be a gate keeper.  And they are often the ones on the scene.  Last year CB started recruiting ahead of time, by notifying the J3 parents that they would be expected to help. I think it worked a bit better - But, this was due to the efforts of highly motivated parents.  Unfortunately, these parents get so overtaxed that they burn out and don't return. 

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Tell me, skimom, why should gatekeeping be restricted to moms? Also, they usually allow the non-skiers to walk up and handle the lower gates. I notice most of the dads volunteer for trail maintenance, but seriously do we really need so many trail maintainers? They are mostly just doing that to get good spots to watch the race, IMO. I bet if the non-skiers got taken up on snowmobiles (no reason they couldn't be) that this issue would go away and if the area would offer the transferable tickets, all the townies would come out of the woodwork as well. The other thing we do here is have TWO gatekeepers for each set of gates. That way if one needs a "health run", the other can still cover. CB could definitely step up their support of the team by furnishing vouchers for ski tickets. I think this is worth pursuing myself, in addition to a system of movable training trails. It's nice that they occasionally get Rocket, but wouldn't it be even better if for the first two hours of the AM they could get Cliffhanger and Margies? Of course, the coaches and maybe a few of the older kids would have to get there bright and early so that the gates could be set up before the kids arrive, but if the training starts at 7:30, it would mean the gates could be down by 9:30 and it would inconvenience very few people. The moving locale would help calm down those who really resent losing their early runs on Cliffy since it wouldn't be a problem every weekend.

[skidude]

Sibby, Last year they only had about 4 people doing course work...And 3 of them were J1/2s (one parent). I know for the most part that day I was running up and down with a drill/key/gates/other stuff.....Also I know there were a few people from over at Ski school (people incharge-ish) that were helping with the race, and even a few rangers

 

I think for umm 'insurance' reasons, they don't want to be driving a) non empolyees around on snowmobiles and driving a snowmobile on a trail with people on it any more that they have to.

 

 

Lets see what else...Training on Cliffy...Although I think it is pretty stupid reason, I will tell you why we can't train on it much this year...Since it is a homologated race trail, I guess there was a new rule by USSA this year that all trails that are going to host a USSA GS race need to be completely fenced, top to bottom, with FIS approved B netting. Right now we have 7 roles of it, we will need about 22 to cover Cliffy for our race. Where we are going to get it, I don't know....But I was told that you also need that amount of fencing now to train on it, since it is a 'race trail'. Rocket on the other hand, which isn't approved for racing only needs fencing where you need it (for safety reason), which makes that a lot easier to train on.

 

So why doesn't CB just buy some FIS B netting and cover Cliffy with it (would be safer for the public, wouldn't it be?) What I was told by the lawyers in the room is: If someone hits a tree, its a natural obstical, and sucks to be them if they die hitting it, however if someone hits fencing on the side of a trail, which is now a 'man made obstical' it is a lot easier for them to sue the mountain....Even if they end up breaking a leg, insted of killing themselves on a tree. Until someone actully hits a tree (then CB has prior knowledge that that secion of trail 'might' be dangrous, they will not put up fencing. Kinda really stupid, I know...

 

Anyway the fencing takes about 1.5 hrs to put up, and probably 1.5 hrs to take down (just a guess) with a resonable amount of people helping. So unless we could get the trail for 1/2 a day or so (which might be possible once or twice, and Gus is working on that now)

 

If we can't get cliffy at all, then we will keep practicing on Rocket in the morning, which isn't bad, but it kinda sucks if we can't practice on our own race hill...Kinda ruins the point of having it at your mountain.

[sibhusky]

Just a quickie as to where to get B netting for the race....we borrow from all over Montana for the NorAms. It takes weeks of the coach carting it up here to collect it all and then he has to turn around and get it back. The division (eq. to PARA) owns B netting which is spread around the areas and for their use in races. The mountain also has it's own, but supplements with division netting when needed. Given the distances here, it ought to be MUCH easier to do in Pa.

 

As for the legal stuff, I wouldn't want to address it. Anyone knows there's always a lawyer who will sue about anything. All they need is a client.

[skidude]

Sib last year at Elk we brought up almost all of our fencing, so they had the whole trail fenced (double fencing in some places). That will probably work for our race, however probably won't work to fence it for practice.

 

Also this year Elk has a races the same day we do, so they aren't gonna be able to let us borrow there fences....Ohh well, we shall see...

[skierboi]

they could always possibly do a afternoon / night training on cliffy, i prob wouldnt happen b.c then they need to groom it and then agfain in the morning

[JohnnyP]

Sorry, been busy with work the past few days and havent looked at this thread.

 

As far as management and race programs, well, it's tough to say. One thing I do know is that it is a good thing if someone that sits behind a desk in the general office has special like of racing. I dont think the race programs need to have whole hearted constant support from management, but it does help to have someone who understands the plusses of having a race staff and program that is successful. I dont mean successful in winning and/or the best program around. I mean one that offers the training and benefits to those who are enrolled or to their guests. Other than that I think the laisse-faire attitude is the best. As long as the program has the facilities it needs and the staffing it needs, it needs no other upper management interdiction, except on the special events coordination and just getting certain programs ok'd. It is capable of running independantly of the other depts at a hill and that is a good thing when it comes to managing: who needs another dept to coddle?

 

One thing management doesnt realize is that the race program brings in a lot of revenue that is uncountable. Remember the cafeteria, the bar ( when it comes to adult racing), the publicity ( if handled right), the surrounding towns economy ( those ski moms and dads have to buy gas somewwhere), equipment and ski shops and other things. Many times management doesnt have to support the coaches or racers financially as much as most people think. At our mountain, the kids buy their GS suits from the ski club and the coaches ( with the exception of the salaried ones) have to pay for their own coaching uniforms. Lift tickets or passes are purchased by the racers and the coaches have to show a certain amount of committment before they are given an employee ski pass. There is almost never paid expenses for coaches education and for away races. The amount I spend each year on traveling, racing and coaching does not make up for the wages I earn from the mountain, but then again if any of us did it for the money, we wouldn't be there very long would we? Thats something I have had to tell people from time to time: "It's not about the money."

[Ski]

Thanks for the insight, Johnny. And, uh, any chance you've moved up in age classes?

[JohnnyP]

In USSA Masters and ASRA, Im a class 4. Wont be moving up for a few years. In USSA I'm a Sr.

[Papasteeze]

JohnnyP is that your picture?? Holy Crap, nice errrrr beautiful shot! I see some MSRT training in that pic

 

Thanks for your post, I don't really expect anything to be given to the CAT team unless there is something tangible that can be returned. I had asked on another board for the management to stop in at our first meeting and say hello since there was a change in ownership this year. Nothing more.

 

This was my post. http://ridecamelback.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2824

 

I didn't think my request was unreasonable. If none of them could attend, a letter to be read at the meeting would have been nice. I know that my family and some others support the economy of that area to the nth degree. There are at least 2 members I know that bought 2nd homes from CB who race and I know of 2 others who have seasonal rentals from CB.

Edited October 5, 2005 by Papasteeze

[Ski]

I see some MSRT training in that pic

Edited October 6, 2005 by ski999

[poconoceancity]

WOW...impressive pic.

[skimom]

Class 4, eh? A kiddo. Isn't that your class, '999? Looks like he'll give you a run for the money...