Papasteeze Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 (edited) Ok - a pair of skis online is advertised as 143 cm with a R14 at 138 - Physically imprinted on the skis is R11 - how can this be? How can a 133cm ski also be advertised as R14 at 138. 138 refers to the length of the sidecut and R14 is equal to a 14 meter radius. A 14 meter radius is a 14 meter radius regardless of how long the tangent is (sidecut). Why do manufacturers list 5 different lengths of skis all with the same radius and tangent. here we go again... this time I am going for free roller blades.. Edited May 3, 2005 by Papasteeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidude Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Not sure if this is what your asking.... Every ski type (all the atomic GS 11s or Volkl GS P60s etc) in there SHORTEST (err I think) length is the radius (Volkl P60s in 175 are a radius of 21 meters, The same model ski in 180 will either be marked as 21 meter radius or >= (greater than or equal to) 21 meters.) Let me put it this way....a ski with the sidecut of 110-65-108 (completely random numbers) in size 165 might have a 12 meter radius, the same ski (110-65-108) in 185 will have a bigger radius (13-15 probably)... maybe this helps..maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 This is the letter I wrote.... In response to a "hey, sorry for the misunderstanding, how about I throw some socks in" reply I got today... I am also sorry for the misunderstanding related to simple geometry. While I appreciate your offer to "make things right" I want to make it perfectly clear that I would not have bought another pair Slalom Skis with a radius sidecut of 11m. regardless of the total length of the cut. You advertised R14 at 138cm. My son owns 6 pairs of various race skis at various radii, at various lengths for various courses. We own 3 sets of fisher skis, 2 of which were bought from you previously! I have attached a picture of a set of your skis in action while in Park City last month! Regardless of the Fischer website information these skis are clearly labeled R11.. no where is there any indication of any type of 14 meter sidecut on this ski, unlike the the Junior World cup skis which is offered both at an R11 & R14. By the way, the Fischer website also states the sidecut length as 138cm on a 133cm ski, how is that possible? You will also notice in the Junior World cup series that the shovel, waist, and tail are clearly different dimensions on a ski of the same length with different radii. I am sure that you know all of this. You would not have been wrong to advertise the information printed on the ski. Advertising other information from other websites and selling a product that is labeled different than your advertising is misleading and wrong in my opinion. I will verify the actual radius of the skis against a proven radius and let you know what I find. It appears to me that you simply copied the info from available marketing info without checking the information printed on the ski. I guess it is possible that these skis regardless of what is printed on them may in fact have a 14 meter side cut. I know that you sell a tremendous amount of skiing equipment - I have bought a half dozen pair of skis and other items from you, I also bought the BUY IT NOW matching bindings for these skis which I would not have bought knowing what I know now. I have 30 pairs of socks and another pair of won't make me forget about this "misprint" at this point. Another thought or point of reference would be the Atomic GS series skis which are heavily marketed - the yellow set is R11, the red set is R14. I hope that this clarifies your "misunderstanding". Since I delivered these skis directly to my ski shop and since it is they who brought this to my attention and since it would be a terrible inconvienence for me to now return these to you, I will make the concession of keeping this pair of skis in return for you giving me ............................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 I hope that this clarifies your "misunderstanding". Since I delivered these skis directly to my ski shop and since it is they who brought this to my attention and since it would be a terrible inconvienence for me to now return these to you, I will make the concession of keeping this pair of skis in return for you giving me ............................ 26276[/snapback] You get the award for the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 (edited) You get the award for the day 26394[/snapback] Our customers have taught me well It's just that this guy has a 99.9% rating with 20,000 sales - he wants to give me a $10 pair of socks for a $235 purchase that was misrepresented.. I don't think so. I trusted him, sent the money and waited for the shipment to arrive. Ebay prides itself on its reputation, he didn't look at what he was actually shipping and I would not have bought them had he listed them correctly. It makes matters worse when he finger points at the Fischer website (which you can't buy from) after taking 3 wks to respond to my original notification. I should have offered him the option to ship the correct skis (since he didn't) and pay for my time and shipping to have the wrong set returned. Edited May 4, 2005 by Papasteeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Sounds like you may be able to annoy him into a resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Not sure if this is what your asking.... Every ski type (all the atomic GS 11s or Volkl GS P60s etc) in there SHORTEST (err I think) length is the radius (Volkl P60s in 175 are a radius of 21 meters, The same model ski in 180 will either be marked as 21 meter radius or >= (greater than or equal to) 21 meters.) Let me put it this way....a ski with the sidecut of 110-65-108 (completely random numbers) in size 165 might have a 12 meter radius, the same ski (110-65-108) in 185 will have a bigger radius (13-15 probably)... maybe this helps..maybe? 26268[/snapback] Yep that helps.. the representation was: Length: 143cm. Sidecut specs: 97-65-85mm. Turn Radius: 14m (@138cm). Retail price $350. I recieved the same tip, waist, tail dimension on the 143cm, to use your example, the radius should have been larger not smaller. I received a ski stamped 11m then he tried to tell me that it this was typical to check around. I checked and am still checking All I want, is for it to be made "right" I found this excerpt at the bottom of the listing... yeah he did everything but check what was written on the ski!!! This item has been fully inspected and I have done my best to describe it here; this auction represents all I can say about this item. It is already packed and ready to ship. You have come to the right place for the best GEAR, PRICES, AND SERVICE. I look forward to a successful auction transaction with you and don't forget to tell your friends!!! Even worse now that I revisted the Fischer website in the Junior race skis section, they have a mouse over function that allows you to clearly read the dimensions of the ski - it says R14 138cm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 I don't understand how a longer version has a shorter radius. It sounds like they sent you an SL version. If you figure out this, let me know - it might help things make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 I don't really know any of the technical stuff going on in this thread, but it really seems like the guy made an honest mistake. If he is doing a lot of business thats understandable. If it is really an issue, send the item back. No doubt a pair of socks isn't going to rectify the situation, but reeming him out might not be the best either. Especially if he got the info from the Rossi website. I understand its an inconvenience for you, but I don't think he was trying to scam you. Trust is a big thing in ebay, but so is cooperation. You can't expect every transaction to be smooth, and when something goes wrong, in my opinion its how the situation is rectified that effects my rating of the person rather than the actual "problem." You didn't seem very interested it rectifying the situation, but rather letting the guy know he messed up big, and he will not receive any more of your business. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibhusky Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I think you should just return them and tell him to pay for all your costs. If they are not right, they're not right, why keep them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I don't really know any of the technical stuff going on in this thread, but it really seems like the guy made an honest mistake. If he is doing a lot of business thats understandable. If it is really an issue, send the item back. No doubt a pair of socks isn't going to rectify the situation, but reeming him out might not be the best either. Especially if he got the info from the Rossi website. I understand its an inconvenience for you, but I don't think he was trying to scam you. Trust is a big thing in ebay, but so is cooperation. You can't expect every transaction to be smooth, and when something goes wrong, in my opinion its how the situation is rectified that effects my rating of the person rather than the actual "problem." You didn't seem very interested it rectifying the situation, but rather letting the guy know he messed up big, and he will not receive any more of your business. IMHO 26411[/snapback] I wouldn't call it an honest mistake, he represents that he inspected the item, if he did then he should have caught this obvious mistake. He then goes on to justifiy that what he shipped is correct because the information came from the Fischer website using industry standards. Wrong again. he still didn't look at the ski he shipped. How would you feel if you ordered a board 140cm and reiceived one 110cm long? Well I ordered 14m sidecut and recieved an 11m, plain and simple. I guess at the start of this thread I should have made it clear that i sent an email with in 2 days of reiceving the skis, notifying and politely asking how do we resolve? It took a week to get a reply and the reply I got was an FAQ cut and pasted. I curtly and professionally replied to that, and expressed that my question was not answered by his FAQ, to which the following week he finally replied, asking me to be patient until May 1st when he would be "back in town" and could "look into it". I then received on May 2nd his BS about what other websites list, and that I was misunderstanding, then came the a cut and pasted caveat of a free pair of socks to make things right. When I immediately replied to that, I got another auto generated reply that he will be answering emails this thursday since he will be out of town. What irks me, is that he admits no wrong. doesn't offer to take the item back and has a 99.8 approval rating. Takes over 3 weeks to offer to resolve a "wrong item shipped" with a pair of socks. I have bought numerous items from him, half of them were "buy it now" items. Well guess what? Had he replied with a reasonable answer in the first week or the second or the third I would not be at this point. I am "reamimg" because he obviously does make things right to keep his approval rating up and my patience is gone. Ebay has good mechansims to resolve misrepresentations to which I have yet to invoke. Antibiotics won't fix this festering wound, it's time to cauterize the gangrene that is growing. You are absolutely correct, how the issue gets corrected is how he will get my approval. It's simple, the longer he takes, the higher his cost will be to resolve this. There are several options that ebay lists for sellers to resolve selling misrepresented items, taking the original item back is not on the list. crediting and sending the correct item is. My last counteroffer to resolve the dispute would cost him less than crediting or sending the correct item. I am being more than fair by ebay standards that list resolutions for shipping misrepresented items. Also this thread is a good place for everyone to learn as I am learning about technical specifications on skis. Also to learn about Ebay disputes, a place for me to document the facts and my thoughts. also a place to practice my typing and a fairwarning to never ship me something other than what I paid for Did anyone notice that we under 20 million seconds left until winter? My how time flies when your having fun.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I don't understand how a longer version has a shorter radius. It sounds like they sent you an SL version. If you figure out this, let me know - it might help things make sense. 26403[/snapback] Ah yep... you would think that an 20,000 ebay seller from Park City Utah would be a little more careful with such an obvious mistake. OR at minimum at least recognize that and offer something other than a pair of socks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I think you should just return them and tell him to pay for all your costs. If they are not right, they're not right, why keep them? 26428[/snapback] I already paid for them, with his responses so far, there IS NO WAY i would ship them back and trust that he will give me my money back, let alone pay for the shipping, since he offered socks for me to keep them, it doesn't sound like he wants them either. There are bindings in all this mess too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 So the ski was stamped 11m, but the auction said: Length: 143cm. Sidecut specs: 97-65-85mm. Turn Radius: 14m (@138cm) Did you ask him before bidding what the actual turn radius was, or did you rely on the description of 14m at 138cm for a 143cm ski? Snowdealsnow is an awesome source for cheap gear, but he's a little clueless when it comes to specifics. I have an as yet unmounted pair of GS:11's from him and they came without a hitch at about 75% off of retail. You can always request contact info from Ebay and give him a call. I've done that three times when I've had problems and it's always worked out. But you'll always be stuck with the shipping charge going both ways. I bought a set of trashed skis that were unusable and the PayPal/Ebay resolution still had me pay for all the shipping. Of course, you can always ship back a similar sized, worthless item and see how that goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibhusky Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I already paid for them, with his responses so far, there IS NO WAY i would ship them back and trust that he will give me my money back, let alone pay for the shipping, since he offered socks for me to keep them, it doesn't sound like he wants them either. There are bindings in all this mess too. 26449[/snapback] Well, definitely put a protest on the charge with your credit card company and at the very least they will withhold payment until it gets resolved. The ONLY acceptable end to this is all of your money back, period. And if you need to invoke all the powers that be at PayPal and Ebay you do it. There is no defense for this guy, it was written ON THE SKI, the heck with the Fischer site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 (edited) Did you ask him before bidding what the actual turn radius was, or did you rely on the description of 14m at 138cm for a 143cm ski? Snowdealsnow is an awesome source for cheap gear, but he's a little clueless when it comes to specifics. You can always request contact info from Ebay and give him a call. I've done that three times when I've had problems and it's always worked out. But you'll always be stuck with the shipping charge going both ways. Of course, you can always ship back a similar sized, worthless item and see how that goes... 26455[/snapback] I didn't contact him to ask what the actual turn radius was on the 143cm ski since I knew it would be greater on the longer ski. Lesson learned for the future, always ask for verification of the information printed on the ski. I had a something sort of similar happen with Atomic skis. Since we have named a name, yep snowdeals has been a great source for me too, OVERALL I am very happy with them. I am reasonably happy with the cost of the purchase. It's the principal of misrepresentation that I am hung up on. If this isn't resolved to my liking.... I like the idea of shipping something slightly different back... I might just do that... Hmmmm..... I have a set of Fischer 138cm - R10 I wonder how they will respond if they notice? I can hear my response now..... ""Oh! I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I was just shipping wrong stuff like everyone else does" "just ask around and check other websites, you will see that this is a industry standard "" "How about I send you a pair of socks and we call it even" Better yet, I will just cut and paste his message right back to him and switch the names around.. LMAO!!!! todd, thanks for your email and sorry about any misunderstanding about the sidecut. i have stated the sidecut for these skis in accordance with the industry standard. you will see that the ad clearly states that this is the sidecut for this ski in the 138cm length. this is the standard way of stating sidecut for a specific ski model. to verify that, please go to the fischer website and also view other sellers ads on ebay or on other online sites (evogear.com or backcountry.com for example). sorry again for any misunderstanding. please reply here..... Thanks for your email. I am sorry about this situation. As a concession, I would be willing to send you a NEW pair of Mosox (made by Fox River) mid-weight ski or snowboard socks. These are some of the nicest socks you can find for skiing or riding. With a retail price of $24.99, they feature the latest and greatest in materials and design. I have used them and I can assure you, they will make your next day on the hill a more pleasurable experience. If this is satisfactory, then simply reply to this email with: 1)your preference of the SKI sock or SNOWBOARD sock 2)your size of Med (mens sz. 5-8.5/womens sz. 6.5-10), Lg (mens sz. 9-12/womens sz. 10.5-12), or XL (mens sz. 13-15) 3)your address for standard mail USPS delivery I hope this helps make things right. Sincerely, Rob Larick Edited May 5, 2005 by Papasteeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I wonder how they will respond if they notice? I can hear my response now..... ""Oh! I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I was just shipping wrong stuff like everyone else does" "just ask around and check other websites, you will see that this is a industry standard "" "How about I send you a pair of socks and we call it even" Don't forget to be sure he knows that he's responsible for the cost of shipping the ski he didn't want back to you. Just out of curiosity, Papasteeze, do you work in the city? Or, do you frequently deal with "the public" at your workplace? I'm wondering why the kids seem more sympathetic toward the vendor than we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 If this isn't resolved to my liking.... I like the idea of shipping something slightly different back... I might just do that... I was thinking more along the lines of a junior set of Olin Mark IV's (circa. 1977). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Don't forget to be sure he knows that he's responsible for the cost of shipping the ski he didn't want back to you. Just out of curiosity, Papasteeze, do you work in the city? Or, do you frequently deal with "the public" at your workplace? I'm wondering why the kids seem more sympathetic toward the vendor than we do? 26474[/snapback] Funny, that the geographical workplace would affect how a person deals with a vendor, while its true that we are all victims of our enviroment. I think that the kids sympathy is born more out of the simple fact that they have not had their own hard earned money ripped off enough times. I have a long history of very intimate dealings with affluential couples making the largest most stressful decisions in their lives. I work behind the scenes now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidude Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 I think that the kids sympathy is born more out of the simple fact that they have not had their own hard earned money ripped off enough times. 26480[/snapback] So you could return it, and get your hard earned money back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 'Dude, are you bringing your pissy summer attitude up here on Sunday? I just wanna be prepared... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted May 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 So you could return it, and get your hard earned money back 26483[/snapback] naaaaaa, that would be too easy... BTW it is now thursday and there is nothng from them in my inbox.. here we go!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidude Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 'Dude, are you bringing your pissy summer attitude up here on Sunday? I just wanna be prepared... 26485[/snapback] Mmm it depends...Since its skiing, probably not...But if I'm stuck in the car with Jeff.... Don't worry, I think I'll hop in Greg, and everything will be cool. Ski, is your daughter going to be there That would insure a good mood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Funny, that the geographical workplace would affect how a person deals with a vendor, while its true that we are all victims of our enviroment. I think that the kids sympathy is born more out of the simple fact that they have not had their own hard earned money ripped off enough times. I have a long history of very intimate dealings with affluential couples making the largest most stressful decisions in their lives. I work behind the scenes now.. 26480[/snapback] No doubt you are right. edited by skimom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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