Radii and sidecuts

[Papasteeze]

Ok let me understand what the concensus is appearing to be. I pay up front for:

 

Fischer Junior Competition

Length: 143cm.

Sidecut specs: 97-65-85mm.

Turn Radius: 14m (@138cm). Retail price $350.

 

I received:

 

Fischer Junior Competition

Length: 143cm.

Sidecut specs: 110-63-92mm.

Turn Radius: 11m (@138cm). Retail price ??? Not available on Fischer website.

 

I buy a set of matching Fischer bindings, these skis require them.

 

I followed Ebay protocol, and emailed of a wrong item shipped. Guys, only now (1 month later) he offers to take AN item back. Tell me why I should ship these items back at my expense. Ebay policy? Nope can't find that. He has offered a pair of socks for my "misunderstanding", tell me why I shouldn't wait to see if he is going to offer something else now that he sees that is HIS MISTAKE. Because I am a nice guy?? Don't you think a guy with such a stellar rating would feel some obligation to make ammends? I know that I would and I have more times than I can ever count for the mistakes I have made.

 

I don't understand "shake down".. I either want the item I ordered or a full refund of all costs (including shipping and bindings). That is not too much to ask for especially when you consider the amount of time I have devoted this whole issue of who of defining right and wrong. Why should I pay anything more than what I bargained for? Because that is ebay's policy? I don't think so. Ebay encourages seller's to work things out. It looks as though he starting to realize, he screwed up.

 

If you really think that I should spend more money and trust to ship the skis and the bindings back and then maybe some day recieve a partial credit that I will have to fight over, then I have some Ocean front property in Arizona for you!!

[sibhusky]

He says he will pay shipping costs if he made an error:

 

2) your preference of paypal or check for the refund of the winning bid amount(plus shipping costs if I have made an error in this transaction). please include your address accordingly for this refund.[

Edited May 11, 2005 by sibhusky

[sibhusky]

You know, I looked up those specs you got and they belong to 2003/2004 Season's Junior Race skis:

 

'04 Fischer RC4 WorldCup Slalom JR w/Jr-Booster Plate

 

 

Award-winning Fischer technology in our top performing junior slalom race ski. Frequency Tuning, AirCarbon Titanium and an aggressive sidecut allow this ski to dominate the race course with the tightest turns and quickest response.

 

This ski has it all. Its incredible in gates, amazingly fast, yet surprisingly easy to control in all types of turns.

 

10mm Jr. Booster Plate included.

 

 

Features:

RSC

FT

AIRCARBON TI

POWER VACUUM

 

Dimensions: 110-63-92

Radius: 11m/L143

 

Is that what you thought you were buying? That is, an OLD model? Or is this a coincidence? Check out (need to page down) http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:awh0L2E...2&hl=en&start=1

Edited May 11, 2005 by sibhusky

[poconoceancity]

Rob, You have to ask yourself how much is your time worth...I'm sure the time and aggravation you spent on this already exceeds the $350.

[Papasteeze]

You know, I looked up those specs you got and they belong to 2003/2004 Season's Junior Race skis:

Is that what you thought you were buying?

Edited May 11, 2005 by Papasteeze

[Glenn]

I followed Ebay protocol, and emailed of a wrong item shipped. Guys, only now (1 month later) he offers to take AN item back. Tell me why I should ship these items back at my expense. Ebay policy? Nope can't find that. He has offered a pair of socks for my "misunderstanding", tell me why I shouldn't wait to see if he is going to offer something else now that he sees that is HIS MISTAKE. Because I am a nice guy?? Don't you think a guy with such a stellar rating would feel some obligation to make ammends?  I know that I would and I have more times than I can ever count for the mistakes I have made.

 

I don't understand "shake down"..  I either want the item I ordered or a full refund of all costs (including shipping and bindings). That is not too much to ask for especially when you consider the amount of time I have devoted this whole issue of who of defining right and wrong. Why should I pay anything more than what I bargained for? Because that is ebay's policy? I don't think so. Ebay encourages seller's to work things out. It looks as though he starting to realize, he screwed up. 

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Sale negotiations (including resolution of problems) is done by the seller. You can't walk into a department store and start calling the shots when you don't like the shirt you just purchased. Sometimes you get store credit other times full refund other times nothing. Although there is a generally accepted standard that if you have your receipt you should get your money back. Likewise in the land of EBAY there is a generally accepted standard, that if the item is returned for whatever reason, the buyer pays shipping both ways. He apparently has a policy of paying shipping if he is wrong, again this is up to him. ... and no I don't think he's about to admit he was wrong. I think he is trying to understand what you are accusing him of.

 

He does enough business one unhappy mislead customer isn't going to mean anything to him.

 

You don't understand "shakedown" but at the same time you want to wait longer to see if he will send you more valuble items besides socks. If you don't understand where we are coming from I don't think you will. You complain that he took forever, but there is a chance to finish this ugly business now, but you want to drag it out so maybe you can pick up some freebies. Lets just say I have doubts about your motives.

 

And this nonesense about your time wasted, who cares really. He's not responsible for that. I suppose he should pay you for your emotional damages as well. The options are there, take the socks, or send back the skis at the cost of shipping.

 

I'm done in this topic have fun!

[Papasteeze]

Tell me again why I should take socks for a screw up that he hasn't admitted yet? Man.... you really got to let me sell you some stuff.. I got tons of it...

 

Accusing him? He shipped a misrepresented item, and has refused to admit it, period.

 

Motives? I'm out to solve all the world's injustices!! It's all just fun and games.... you win some you loose some. relax! I am the only one allowed to be wound up on this one

 

 

Good news is I caught a bunch of fish in the surf last weekend..

Edited May 11, 2005 by Papasteeze

[AtomicSkier]

Rob, tell me this, what are you now trying to get out of this?

 

You just seem to be arguing, perhaps until you get a free pair (seems to work for you), but either keep the skis, take the socks, or send them back. I do not see what you're trying to accomplish.

[Papasteeze]

Rob, tell me this, what are you now trying to get out of this?

 

You just seem to be arguing, perhaps until you get a free pair (seems to work for you), but either keep the skis, take the socks, or send them back.  I do not see what you're trying to accomplish.

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Accomplish, 2 things I guess.

 

He offered socks when he thought that I was an "unreasonable customer" to "make me go away and be happy". Now only now, finally, does he agree to pay for shipping and full credit because it was his mistake. My second email a month ago simply asked for merchandise equivilent to the costs of shipping and socks to keep an 03/04 wrong shaped ski. That is fair.

 

It is also fair to give the guy an unfavorable rating and forward all of the extended dialogue to ebay in the event that other customers have a similar experience. I firmly believe that other buyers took it on the chin ate the costs, or took socks for his mistakes and let it go. Look he made me to feel stupid, a few months I would have believed what he was saying. He has now admitted that he will be more careful in the future, see below:

 

Accomplish maybe a third thing - an answer to the question.. Offering a pair of socks when he thought I was wrong only begs the question of what would he offer now that he realizes that he is wrong. Full refund??? What happened to the socks? BTW - if the guy gives socks away so freely I know how everyone can get a pair!!

 

rob

thanks for your email.

yes i understand all of that.

my emails to you have been reasonable and i would continue to take this stance if the sidecut specs were not as advertised.

now that you have brought to my attention that the sidecut specs on the skis you recieved are different than what was advertised (i dont think you said that before), i see that there has been an error on my part and i am ready to correct it in the manner that you suggest.

i deal with a lot of customers that put unreasonable demands on me and initially thats what your inquiry looked like.

if we are talking about turning radius then my listing was not inaccurate.

hence my stance to this point.

 

This guy still doesn't understand radius and it's relation to width dimensions. so I am trying to accomplish that too

 

but apparently my listing was inaccurate in regards to the widths of the ski.

i understand that these are of course related and i am sorry that it took so much dialogue to reach this understanding about the skis having different width specs than what was advertised.

but we are there now.

i made a mistake and i am ready to correct it.

you can return the skis and bindings and i will issue a refund of the winning bid amounts plus shipping (both directions).

thanks for your bringing this to my attention. i will take a closer look at this and make the necessary adjustments to my auction ads.

heres the info.....

[sibhusky]

I think the bigger issue is whether the ad said "brand new skis" or "2005" skis. Are we sure you got old model skis, of course, is a question. Normally there is some (possibly small) graphics change between years. Do you still have the ad? I'd look at the ski you got vs. the one pictured. Are all the graphics the same? Then compare the picture to the pictures of 2005 skis.

 

I know when I was looking for K2 XP's on the web I had to be REALLY sure what the year of the ski was and queried every seller about this. Many said "brand new skis" or "2004" skis (this was at the beginning of last year). I asked if they were 2003-2004 or 2004-2005 before I bid. Quite a number admitted that they were prior season's skis, but you couldn't tell from the ad text. And the graphics for that ski were extremely similar year to year for about four years. After I owned them and sat on the chair with others I started to be able to see the differences, but they were subtle.

 

The reason I say this is key, is because the guy could know beans about sidecuts and widths and their impact, but he darn well knows the model year of the skis.

Edited May 11, 2005 by sibhusky

[Papasteeze]

UGHHH - I just took another look at the link Sib posted, those are the World Cup not Competion series.

 

The skis are at my ski shop so I can't compare side by side, but they do at a glance look like the advertisement. These are the first few lines cut from the auction ad.

 

skis FISCHER 2005 COMPETITION JR 143 junior kids NEW

Hot New 2005 Design/Graphic. Retail $350. 3 skis in 1!!

 

2005 Fischer COMPETITION JR. This is a new release in Fischer's 2005 line-up and it's been a huge hit. This highly sought after multi-event ski (GS race,

 

I'm still perplexed with the fact that he still thinks it is OK to use an Industry standard that describes a line of skis to sell an individual ski.

 

I found some information that describe the relation of side cuts which create the skis dimension which in turn form the radius or visa-versa:

 

As a ski's length shortens (within each model), the tip width, waist width and tail width dimensions remain unchanged. This results in shorter skis having a smaller turning radius.

 

The converse is longer skis having larger radius.

 

Another one:

 

Picture a ski, looking down at it from above. It has inward curves (sidecut) on either edge. Now draw an imaginary circle that extends from one of those curves outward. If your imaginary ski has a deep sidecut (very curvy) the circle you draw will be smaller. If the sidecut is shallow (straighter profile) then the circle will have to be very large. The sidecut radius is a line drawn from the ski edge to the center of the circle. Measured in meters, the sidecut radius is the size of the turn that the ski will make when set on edge.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Papasteeze

[Papasteeze]

There is a mathematical formula by which you can enter width dimensions and length to determine a radius. chords and tangents in relation to arcs and radii are memories of high school geometry.. I can see my next mission..............

 

If a ski has a true radius side cut of 14 meters and the ski width measures 125mm at the tip 75mm at the midpoint and 100mm at the tail along a length of 138cm. What would the ski radius be if the ski was lengthened to 143cm and the width dimension were the same?

 

Uhh guess what? 0,50,25 over 138cm will not form a radius of 14 meters, what is the the true radius given those widths? What is the mid point length if the tail drops to 0? Another problem is that the chord of 138 doesn't seem possible on a 143cm ski due to the tip and tail curving back towards the centerline of the ski. when they say 14m at 138 are they reffering to the chord or the radius cut they use on that particular length ski..

 

Just got a headache with all the triangles - some other day..... if the Tips and the tails were the same width, it looks to be easy. Anyone?

Edited May 11, 2005 by Papasteeze

[skimom]

Though I often can't resist a good puzzle, you need to remeasure the length since the tip width isn't at the end of the ski...can't calculate curvature without the relevant length. Also, since the ski has taper, can we assume it's curvature is uniform? It would be hopeless to try to determine turning radius if the sidecut doesn't form a smooth arc.

 

Sidebar: In more tapered skis, is the waist further back? And, how does that impact turnability? Are tapered skis harder to turn? '999, if you can tolerate this useless, intellectual hot air, any thoughts on turning vis-a-vis tail taper?

[Ski]

Sidebar:

Edited May 12, 2005 by ski999

[Glenn]

Measured in meters, the sidecut radius is the size of the turn that the ski will make when set on edge.

26706[/snapback]

 

 

I know I said I was done, but the topic has turned in a direction I like. Just thought I would point out that the radius is slightly LARGER than the largest turn the ski can make in a carve. This seems counter intuitive until you consider when a ski goes on edge it flexs slightly thus decreasing the radius of the circle you are carving through. Thus, the the faster you go, the tighter the turn you can make because the ski flexes more. Of coarse that is only looking at the technical aspect of the turn, actually executing a tight turn at high speed obviously becomes harder at high speeds.

 

I've gots some free time, I'll see if I can figure out that radius problem.

[sibhusky]

Are you sure he sent you the right model and year?

 

Here is a site with all the measurements for each length for the most recent season:

http://erskia.co.uk/racing/RaceInformation...s%202004_05.htm

[sibhusky]

This is from the Fischer site, a picture of last year's competition junior:

 

2004-2005:

 

 

And world cup SL junior:

 

 

2003-2004:

 

world cup junior:

Edited May 12, 2005 by sibhusky

[skidude]

Sib you sure that stuff is right?

 

That would make any Volkl and Atomic not a leagal FIS/USSA ski for GS... Not sure why ski compainys would make race skis that weren't legal.

 

More importantly, about this whole topic....You can ski a 14 meter ski, but chances are you are not skiing a 14 meter turn. Unless you are skiing the ski exactly how it was made (and tested), then your probably not skiing the radius. I have taken my 183 >21m radius skis in a slalom course (lots of skidding) but I have taken my slalom skis 165 (12ish radius) in a GS course, and carved every turn.

 

What am I saying? Get on a pair of reasonable skis for the disiplin (Sl skis for sl, gs skis for gs) and just adjust your turns for the way the gates are set.

[skidude]

This is the ski in the auction...

 

[sibhusky]

So, it looks like the picture in the auction is the right ski. But what did he GET?

[sibhusky]

Sib you sure that stuff is right?

 

That would make any Volkl and Atomic not a leagal FIS/USSA ski for GS... Not sure why ski compainys would make race skis that weren't legal.

 

 

I can't answer whether it's right or not. What does your SKI say?

 

More importantly, about this whole topic....You can ski a 14 meter ski, but chances are you are not skiing a 14 meter turn.  Unless you are skiing the ski exactly how it was made (and tested), then your probably not skiing the radius. I have taken my 183 >21m radius skis in a slalom course (lots of skidding) but I have taken my slalom skis 165 (12ish radius) in a GS course, and carved every turn.

 

What am I saying?  Get on a pair of reasonable skis for the disiplin (Sl skis for sl, gs skis for gs) and just adjust your turns for the way the gates are set.

26726[/snapback]

 

Also, did anyone actually check your radius in the gate? I bet they didn't. Siblet skied an "illegal" GS ski in the FIS race at Park City. No one stopped her. Maybe if she was in the top 3 they would have, I don't know.

[skidude]

We had a kid who came in like 31st at Tussey get DSQed and was told he would be DSQed the next day because he wasn't on legal SL skis.

 

Someone was willing to put up $100 for a protest fee, so the TD (who happened to be Gus) had to listen....Needless to say he was

 

 

Back to your other question sib, My P50s (not P60s) say they are 183 >21m, so I'm not worried, but who knows about the new ones.

[Ski]

That would make any Volkl and Atomic not a leagal FIS/USSA ski for GS... Not sure why ski compainys would make race skis that weren't legal.

 

J1/2's aren't skiing junior skis. They are legal for J3/4/5...most everything is.

 

More importantly, about this whole topic....You can ski a 14 meter ski, but chances are you are not skiing a 14 meter turn.  Unless you are skiing the ski exactly how it was made (and tested), then your probably not skiing the radius.

Exactly right, 'Dude.

[skidude]

J1/2's aren't skiing junior skis. They are legal for J3/4/5...most everything is.

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Ummm

 

Volkl P60 GC Racing GS 188cm 108-65-94 20.8M

Volkl P60 GC Racing GS 183cm 108-65-94 19.6M

 

Atomic GS:11 GS 186cm 105-65-95 19.5M

Atomic GS:11 GS 181cm 104-65-94 19M

 

As far as I know no J3/4/5 is skiing on 181s-188s....

[AtomicSkier]

Ummm

 

Volkl  P60 GC Racing  GS  188cm  108-65-94  20.8M       

Volkl  P60 GC Racing  GS  183cm  108-65-94  19.6M

 

Atomic  GS:11  GS  186cm  105-65-95  19.5M 

Atomic  GS:11  GS  181cm  104-65-94  19M

 

As far as I know no J3/4/5 is skiing on 181s-188s....

26736[/snapback]

 

I've wondered about that too, because Ski999's GS:11s are actually 21m (the dimensions of the ski changed for each length), but the new ones change for each length. The 176's i plan on getting are only 18.5