sibhusky Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Those of you skiing out West this year may not be as safe as you think skiing off piste. Here at Whitefish, we've now had two snowboarders die in tree wells. Both supposedly CAME with friends, but the friends were not around when they needed them. Please, read this article (hitting Next through the whole thing) and especially remember: It is critical to ski or ride with a partner who remains in visual contact with you at all times. If you and your partner choose to ski or snowboard in ungroomed areas your partner must: Always stay in visual contact so that they can see you if you fall. Visual contact means stopping and watching your partner descend at all times, then proceeding downhill while he or she watches you at all times. It does NO GOOD if your partner is waiting for you in lift line while you are riding down. Stay close enough to either pull or dig you out. If you have any question about what "close enough" to assist someone in a tree well is, hold your breath while you are reading this. The amount of time before you need air may be how much time your partner has to pull or dig you out of danger. Other factors such as creating an air pocket or the position you fall in, may affect this critical timeframe. Remember, if you lose visual contact with your partner you could lose your friend. It is important to know that most people who have died in deep snow or tree well accidents had been skiing or riding with "partners" at the time of their accident. Unfortunately, none of these partners were in visual contact so they were not able to be of help in a timely manner. I personally was scared a bit when reading Big Mountain ski-related death history to find someone had died on Good Med in a tree well. I ski there all the time without a buddy. I'll be giving those trees a wider berth after seeing some of the tree well pics in that article. Edited January 9, 2011 by sibhusky Quote
Glenn Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 It's an unfortunate risk of riding trees. Falling face forward near trees is super dangerous, and it should be treated as deadly. I've been stuck in plenty of tree wells with air, and a few times my head was under. While the suggestions listed are helpful, they are also unrealistic. It's a rare case when you can really keep a group tight in many sets of trees. Also, tree wells are the biggest issue when things are still really soft. When the snow settles more, tree wells are far less dangerous. So you can probably find bigger spaced trees, and other out of the way spots to ski/ride, if the risk of tree wells is beyond your comfort level. Quote
nick malozzi Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) I've certainly found myself stuck in a few out here, and it is no doubt a scary situation. Glenn is right though, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to keep a group together in the trees. The "kid in the candy store" mentality almost ALWAYS takes over and within seconds everyone is heading in different directions looking for the terrain features they prefer. Really when it comes down to it, if you are off piste, in the backcountry, or even on a trail that is pushing your skill level you have to weigh the risks and decide if the risk is worth the reward. That ratio is different for everyone, and changes based on ones level of understanding. Keeping the risks fresh in ones mind can help with understanding. So please don't stop posting information like this. Simply skiing groomers and watching the latest ski videos really gives people a false sense of security for when they do venture off piste. I know I came out here with little to know understanding of the shit I could get myself into. Thankfully, I learned quickly. Edited January 9, 2011 by nick malozzi Quote
jordan Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Another helpful piece of advice would be to wear a beacon in bounds when there is new snow, and invest in an avalung as well. Beacons lower search times dramatically, and an avalung will prevent a deadly "ice mask" from developing around the face causing asphyxiation. Edited January 9, 2011 by jordan Quote
AtomicSkier Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Tree wells are serious shit. I ate shit near a tree falling face forward and luckily I came up right side up downhill of the tree. It was a tree well that took the life of one of a PASR's member's parents. Stay safe out there. Quote
bluemt1988 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Wow. Good article. Very informative. Def will keep this in mind! Thanks a lot. Pretty scary shit. Quote
nick malozzi Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Another helpful piece of advice would be to wear a beacon in bounds when there is new snow, and invest in an avalung as well. Beacons lower search times dramatically, and an avalung will prevent a deadly "ice mask" from developing around the face causing asphyxiation. If you are traveling in bounds in a manner similar to what Sibhusky is suggesting a beacon isn't going to do all that much. What she is suggesting is watching members of your party at all times. If someone goes into a tree well then the rescue should be easy with or without a beacon; since you'll see the tree they are buried by. Conversely, if traveling in a manner like Glenn and I are suggesting in bounds then the beacon is also almost useless since you'd never know to start searching. It certainly would be helpful if you hear a friend yell or something as they get buried, but I'd imagine odds of that are slim to none. I'm in NO WAY arguing the use of a beacon in bounds. I'm simply stating that if wearing beacons a party must follow basic back country safety rules and stay visible at all times. Otherwise, you'd never know to even start searching. In addition, a beacon isn't going to drastically speed up a rescue from a tree well if you do have said visibility of party members. Beacons are for avalanche rescue where you don't know the precise location of the victim. A shovel and probe would also be more important for all members to have on hand before an avalung. Again, not arguing their use or effectiveness, but they are worthless if your party members don't have a way to dig you out quickly. Edited January 10, 2011 by nick malozzi Quote
sibhusky Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Posted January 10, 2011 I have a really loud whistle on my neck when I ski. The question, of course, is whether I can get to the whistle without causing more snow to fall around me. Same with getting skis off. I read somewhere (maybe in that article?) that now snowboarders are more likely to die in tree wells (the two here were both boarders) because they don't have release bindings and poles to get to them so they can't get their equipment off. Quote
jordan Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Conversely, if traveling in a manner like Glenn and I are suggesting in bounds then the beacon is also almost useless since you'd never know to start searching. It certainly would be helpful if you hear a friend yell or something as they get buried, but I'd imagine odds of that are slim to none. I disagree. If you are skiing in a treed area, and one member of your party doesn't make it out of the trees, you can quickly go back and find them much easier with a beacon. All patrol carry beacons as well, so they could aid in the search. Many beacons have a range of 100 yards or more, so if you have a group searching the trees below the last sighting of the person in a fan like pattern, i would say that person would be found pretty quickly. The avalung would buy the extra time necessary to do a search of this type. I do agree with you that it wouldnt hurt to carry a shovel and probe as well, but I would say in a tree well situation, a probe is almost useless, and digging and pulling someone out of one without a shovel would be relatively easy. The snow is much more loosely packed in a tree well situation than in an avy situation. Edited January 10, 2011 by jordan Quote
sibhusky Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Posted January 10, 2011 More detail on this weekend's deaths The interesting thing is that this snowboarder died off T-Bar 2 (not that long!) just like the other one. Quote
nick malozzi Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 I disagree. If you are skiing in a treed area, and one member of your party doesn't make it out of the trees, you can quickly go back and find them much easier with a beacon. All patrol carry beacons as well, so they could aid in the search. Many beacons have a range of 100 yards or more, so if you have a group searching the trees below the last sighting of the person in a fan like pattern, i would say that person would be found pretty quickly. The avalung would buy the extra time necessary to do a search of this type. I do agree with you that it wouldnt hurt to carry a shovel and probe as well, but I would say in a tree well situation, a probe is almost useless, and digging and pulling someone out of one without a shovel would be relatively easy. The snow is much more loosely packed in a tree well situation than in an avy situation. Again, I'm not here to argue with you. A beacon can always make the search easier. What I was getting at with the "Glenn and I" situation wasn't explained fully. In most "in bounds" cases groups meet at a lift that may be quite a ways away from the trees. At that point you are already too far to really fire up a search. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. 1 Quote
jordan Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Again, I'm not here to argue with you. A beacon can always make the search easier. What I was getting at with the "Glenn and I" situation wasn't explained fully. In most "in bounds" cases groups meet at a lift that may be quite a ways away from the trees. At that point you are already too far to really fire up a search. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Ok, generally when I am with a group, where tree wells are an issue, we meet where you pop out of the trees to make sure everyone made it out. If not, you ride the lift back up, summon ski patrol and start a search. Quote
Glenn Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Avalung + Beacon makes more sense then anything else I've heard, a shovel and probe aren't useful in a tree well. You should be able to just pull them out. It's not a full burial, it's an awkward partial burial in soft loose snow. Still, I've waited at a chair for 20 min for someone. Injuries, lost skis, just stuck in flats, lots of reasons not to show up on time. Not all are worthy of a full ski patrol search. Just like a missing person isn't a missing person until 24 hours or whatever. Plus, how long do you wait? 5 min? Now all of a sudden you are running a search and your partner is wondering where you are. He starts a search as well. Radios help with the miscommunication, but then you have reception issues, interference from other mountain users and you have another "necessary" piece of equipment. There's tons of things you can do to reduce risk, but you will never eliminate it. Chances are risk homeostasis will have an effect on your choices. In the end, are you still getting the reward of a bouncy fun-filled romp through the trees or are you preoccupied with all the ways you can die and loading up on marginally effective safety practices. Do what you need to be in your comfort zone and by all means learn what the risks are. The advice listed in the thread is not bad, but it's usefulness is limited in all situations. Quote
Johnny Law Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 A long time ago I was at Alpine Ghettos in Beaver Bowl working slack routes near Granite Chief gate. In between Beaver and Estelle Getty bowl there is a sweet section of trees, sick day lots of snow roll into the tree section for what had to be the 10th time and catch something underneath the snow. In 1/10 of a second I'm upside down in a pine tree, as I'm trying to figure out what is going on I realize there is awful lot of snow around my head and that I'm kind stuck in this position. OH FUCK ITS A WELL, I can't describe the urge to panic everything you think would run through your mind does. I know your not supposed to thrash around but still I do which only causes more snow to fill in the area I'm trying to clear around my head. I mean how fucking stupid would it be to die like that......the gap in between my boot and binding had gotten stuck on a lower little branch and eventually I realized I had lucked out and could use this to pull myself out. Was probably really stuck for no more than a minute but scariest experience of my skiing life for sure. Pretty sure if the ski didn't catch on that branch I would be dead. 1 Quote
Glenn Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 OH FUCK ITS A WELL, I can't describe the urge to panic everything you think would run through your mind does. I know your not supposed to thrash around but still I do which only causes more snow to fill in the area I'm trying to clear around my head. This is what happens. Quote
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