"Junior" ski advice needed

[Timeless]

It's new ski time (again) for my son and I wanted to get any useful input I can from here as he is coming into a difficult age/size range.

 

He's currently riding 128cm Mantra's which are clearly too short now he has grown quickly this season and ideally looking at his height now and anticipating some growth before next season I think something around 140cm is going to be top of forehead for him. However, most "junior" ski's seem to be very soft and looking at some of the pictures I've taken this year he is really bending the mantra's in the soft stuff rather than having them carve through it.

 

So my questions are:

 

is "top of forehead" right for all-mountain/powder ski's of should I consider longer as he is on the heavy side for his height.

are there better suppliers of Junior ski's that dont make everything out of foam.

are there small adult ski's that would make more sense, he is quite a strong/aggressive skier.

 

Any other advice / suggestions?

 

he is only 10, 11 by next season.

 

Thanks

[JFskiDan]

i'm subscribing to this thread as well, since my buddys 11 yo son has out grown his current skis and has his heart set on a pair of twin tips.

 

i was thinking 140 or better for him as well. my thinking was get something a little longer and let him grow into them, and, i thought twins were typically measured tip to tail, making the actual skiing surface less.

[Justo8484]

timeless, check out the k2 bad seed. it's got an 85mm waist so it'll work well in the fresh snow you guys get out there as opposed to most kids skis, which are pretty narrow, but you've got him on mantras now so you already know the benefit of that. you'd probably be splitting hairs between the 139 and 149 if he's a solid skier, honestly. if you're looking for something even wider, they make the bad apple, which is 100mm waist and full powder rocker, but that's probably overkill. basically a little kid's hellbent.

[sibhusky]

Timeless, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Mantras (even if a junior version) the male version of the Auras? If so, they're for soft snow and SHOULD bend. They're not race skis, they're for off piste conditions. You roll over the edges and without needing speed the ski's camber inverts and you get the ski to turn easily in the powder. So I'm not sure what your issue is. The stiffer the ski, the tougher it is to ski off the groomers. I should know, my Outlaws are just a bit too stiff for me to enjoy tighter trees. Now, Siblet has the Auras and loves them MOST of the time because she's a racer at heart and an EXTREMELY GOOD SKIER in all conditions. The one issue she has is they are not quite wide enough for some of the conditions we've had here this year, but she likes that "race heritage" that Volkls have and in demoing other skis has found them lacking for the groomed areas of the mountain. I'm sure she'll continue demoing, but the fact is that I know she's commented that the Auras, while not being HORRID for tearing down groomers like some powder skis are, do tend to CHATTER when she rips it on the groomers. They are not as stiff as her race skis are because of their softer flex. Hence, they turn conditions which would be WORK (deep snow and chop) for her race skis into pleasure. (I used to have to listen to her complain a bunch before she had them.) Just yesterday they had the employee day on the mountain where the mountain is open for an employee picnic. She, her patroller boyfriend, and another patroller (who is very full of himself for his skiing abilities) went down something called Whitey's. Now Whitey's was nice just last Thursday, but since then we've had sun on it. So picture large clumps of sun-softened crud kicked up during the sunny day, on a very steep slope. Now freeze it hard as a rock. The patrollers, skiing much wider skis struggled like the dickens. She just hopped from one spot to another down the hill. They arrived shaken at the bottom and the guy who thought he was such a hot skier turned to her boyfriend and told him, he had to admit it, but Siblet could out ski him by a mile. Some of this was the skis, much was the skier.

 

Getting back to the Mantras (assuming they are the male Aura), to me they are performing as they should be if they are bending. They are not as soft as some powder skis, but they have enough backbone to handle the firmer stuff.

 

An "all-mountain" ski should never be confused with a "powder" ski. I'd call at this point, my Outlaws "all mountain" skis. They are in trouble when I have to make tight turns in heavier powder. To enjoy those conditions, I need to find a more flexible, wider, ski. And I plan to do that next season. But, for you, pick one. You either need to get him "all mountain" skis, which are never PERFECT for all conditions, or you want to get him "powder" skis to handle POWDER.

 

I'm thinking he still should be on junior skis at his age. Unless he's darn heavy. Maybe he's "aggressive", but he needs to be able to bend the ski either by his weight or using skill plus speed. The speed factor will get to be an issue in off piste conditions.

[Timeless]

Timeless, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Mantras (even if a junior version) the male version of the Auras? If so, they're for soft snow and SHOULD bend. They're not race skis, they're for off piste conditions. You roll over the edges and without needing speed the ski's camber inverts and you get the ski to turn easily in the powder. So I'm not sure what your issue is. The stiffer the ski, the tougher it is to ski off the groomers. I should know, my Outlaws are just a bit too stiff for me to enjoy tighter trees. Now, Siblet has the Auras and loves them MOST of the time because she's a racer at heart and an EXTREMELY GOOD SKIER in all conditions. The one issue she has is they are not quite wide enough for some of the conditions we've had here this year, but she likes that "race heritage" that Volkls have and in demoing other skis has found them lacking for the groomed areas of the mountain. I'm sure she'll continue demoing, but the fact is that I know she's commented that the Auras, while not being HORRID for tearing down groomers like some powder skis are, do tend to CHATTER when she rips it on the groomers. They are not as stiff as her race skis are because of their softer flex. Hence, they turn conditions which would be WORK (deep snow and chop) for her race skis into pleasure. (I used to have to listen to her complain a bunch before she had them.) Just yesterday they had the employee day on the mountain where the mountain is open for an employee picnic. She, her patroller boyfriend, and another patroller (who is very full of himself for his skiing abilities) went down something called Whitey's. Now Whitey's was nice just last Thursday, but since then we've had sun on it. So picture large clumps of sun-softened crud kicked up during the sunny day, on a very steep slope. Now freeze it hard as a rock. The patrollers, skiing much wider skis struggled like the dickens. She just hopped from one spot to another down the hill. They arrived shaken at the bottom and the guy who thought he was such a hot skier turned to her boyfriend and told him, he had to admit it, but Siblet could out ski him by a mile. Some of this was the skis, much was the skier.

 

Getting back to the Mantras (assuming they are the male Aura), to me they are performing as they should be if they are bending. They are not as soft as some powder skis, but they have enough backbone to handle the firmer stuff.

 

An "all-mountain" ski should never be confused with a "powder" ski. I'd call at this point, my Outlaws "all mountain" skis. They are in trouble when I have to make tight turns in heavier powder. To enjoy those conditions, I need to find a more flexible, wider, ski. And I plan to do that next season. But, for you, pick one. You either need to get him "all mountain" skis, which are never PERFECT for all conditions, or you want to get him "powder" skis to handle POWDER.

 

I'm thinking he still should be on junior skis at his age. Unless he's darn heavy. Maybe he's "aggressive", but he needs to be able to bend the ski either by his weight or using skill plus speed. The speed factor will get to be an issue in off piste conditions.

 

This is very interesting and useful, thanks.

 

he definitely needs something that can handle the soft "off piste" stuff, though this is obviously not only powder, I had incorrectly assumed that the extra flex was unhelpful in this but need to re-evaluate this based on your comments. The mantras are definietly supposed to be a "freeride" ski and he does complain about their speed/chatter on the groomers compared to his K2's which are a "normal" ski but given a free choice he chooses the mantras 98% of the time.

 

 

This was just the kind of input I was looking for, he will thank you for it.

[Barb]

Timeless, keep posting in this thread when you make your decision. My son also soon to be 11 (next week), also riding 128's needs a new pair. After 2 seasons riding them for the race team they are beat to hell. Not sure what to get him since we will now be riding out west.

[mbike-ski]

my son was 11 at the beginning of last season and i ended up getting him dynastar serial troubles, twin tip 80 underfoot (now "6th sense" i think)and have been very happy with the choice. you may want to go a bit wider out there but a solid twin will give him a good tool for the park as well as let him rip up the rest of the mountain. while he's not a real super park rat he spends alot of time there with his buddies - where da boys want to be!!! he's pretty tall and i went long with 154's and theyre short now after 2 seasons while not a junior ski per se i think most twins are marketed to that age and ski a little softer.

Edited April 12, 2011 by mbike-ski

[Justo8484]

my son was 11 at the beginning of last season and i ended up getting him dynastar serial troubles, twin tip 80 underfoot (now "6th sense" i think)and have been very happy with the choice. you may want to go a bit wider out there but a solid twin will give him a good tool for the park as well as let him rip up the rest of the mountain. while he's not a real super park rat he spends alot of time there with his buddies - where da boys want to be!!! he's pretty tall and i went long with 154's and theyre short now after 2 seasons while not a junior ski per se i think most twins are marketed to that age and ski a little softer.

 

your kid is only 11? geeze! i thought he was 14 or 15 based on how tall he is. you hit it spot on though with the serial trouble. it's technically sold as an adult ski, but the flex is toned down a notch compared to the trouble maker (now 6th sense superpipe) or the other real adult skis. the freeride/twin tip market is killing it in this segment because you really do get a decently skiing ski with the right flex for someone that age/size, whereas with a traditional all mountain ski, your offerings are a bit more limited, mostly due to ski length. there's a bunch of skis that fall into this category, like the rossi s2, k2 press, silencer, and something else they have coming out for next year, line mastermind, etc. they're all around 80-85mm waist and are going to be pretty much the best do-everything ski you can find for somebody who's in between a 'kids' ski and an 'adult' ski.

[mbike-ski]

your kid is only 11? geeze! i thought he was 14 or 15 based on how tall he is.

he was 11 at the beginning of LAST season - he just turned 13 in february. he's gonna be taller (and faster) than me real soon

[Justo8484]

he was 11 at the beginning of LAST season - he just turned 13 in february. he's gonna be taller (and faster) than me real soon

 

reading comprehension skills are a little lacking today... my bad.

[mbike-ski]

reading comprehension skills are a little lacking today... my bad.

its ok... effin' rain, no skiing or biking will do that to ya

[Timeless]

Timeless, keep posting in this thread when you make your decision. My son also soon to be 11 (next week), also riding 128's needs a new pair. After 2 seasons riding them for the race team they are beat to hell. Not sure what to get him since we will now be riding out west.

 

If he has only the "east coast" experience of skiing down marked and groomed runs, you should buy him some mantra's in whatever size fits him. We bought Lucas the mantras when we moved out here as the first time we went out he was struggling quite badly to get his K2's to turn or float in the soft stuff off of the runs (where you will spend a lot of your time). The mantras were a huge improvement for him immediately, some of this might have been in his head, but who cares.

 

Given Sibhusky's comment about the flex I may just get him another pair in the correct size, they go quite long still in the Junior range. The other option I was looking at were the Gotoma (sp?) Juniors as these come with their "ELP" rocker which should be interesting. I see Volkl hace discontinued the Junior Mantra this year, a real shame.

[AtomicSkier]

Timeless, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Mantras (even if a junior version) the male version of the Auras? If so, they're for soft snow and SHOULD bend. They're not race skis, they're for off piste conditions.

 

I'm correcting you. Mantra's are a fat GS ski, two sheets of titanium and vertical sidewalls. I know they're touted as the best all around ski, but they're just too twitchy for pow days. My Got's are much softer which smooths things over so much nicer Mantra's are a Porsche, where the Got's are a Benz.

 

Timless, check out the junior Gotama's...JohnnyStyle and I saw some little grom at Snowmass rockin junior Got's...looked pretty badass, and rockered, too.

[sibhusky]

From Volkl:

 

The Mantra is the pinnacle product for the skier who wants to ski the deep stuff, yet still have a solid, all-mountain feel on the front of the mountain. Still unparalleled in the market, it’s the go-to ski for those who want a powder ski that is versatile enough to ski hard on groomed terrain as well.

 

From Backcountry:

 

Feed the Volkl Mantra a healthy helping of nipple-deep powder in the morning, and it'll reward you with face-melting corduroy turns all afternoon. With superhero-like versatility, the Mantra's full-length core and titanium topsheet soak up chunder and chop as you drive this grippy ride toward the back bowls. Set its 133mm tip and mid-fat waist loose on a fresh line and watch it float to the top with the power and maneuverability of a helicopter gunship. So nail your race skis to the wall and retire your mid-fats, because the Mantra has all the game you'll ever need.

 

From theskiingexperts.com:

 

Volkl Mantra Ski Reviews

Not recommended for the beginning skier, the Volkl Mantra ski is designed to be used best by more experienced users. Those who enjoy carving through fresh powder and taking on hard-pack in the same day, will find the Volkl Mantra skis to be an absolutely top notch product.

 

The Mantra is an all-purpose ski built with a wide waist to provide great stability and exact response to your every move. The raised 133 mm tips will keep the front end of your Volkl skis from getting stuck in the crud.

 

 

What's Good About the Volkl Mantra?

Because of its smooth ride and ease of motion, some users praise the Volkl Mantra for its ability to double as a racing ski.

 

Though they were designed for deep powder navigation, many users buy the Volkl Mantras to be used as their skies for all conditions. Whether on ice, powder, crud, or firmer off-piste snow, these skis will handle whatever ground you toss them on.

 

It has also been said that the Volkl Mantra skis can hold a carve just as well as a GS ski, which is saying quite a lot.

 

 

What's Not-So-Good About the Volkl Mantra?

Many Volkl ski reviews reveal the product to be a blast for fast, downhill skiing, but when it comes to short-radius turns, the Volkl Mantras take quite a bit of muscle work to get them to do what you want. That seems to be the main trade-off.

 

...snip...

 

For those skiers looking for a more gentle, easy ride down the mountain, the Volkl Mantra ski can prove problematic. They respond well to your movements, but it takes a good deal of muscle and strength to make them do what you want.

 

This is particularly true of skiing among moguls. They are just fine as long as you are aggressive about your approach. If you try to slalom through them lazily, you might find yourself in trouble.

 

 

So, I'll revise my statement that they are not meant for racing to they are meant to handle off piste while still handling the groomers. And basically, he's not asking if they are the BEST for powder, he's asking if they should bend. They do.

Edited April 13, 2011 by sibhusky

[AtomicSkier]

Revise whatever statement you want. I have both skis. Any ski bends. Gapers think Mantra's are a powder ski. They're only 96mm in the waist. I bought them solely for a stable groomer ski in the east. I wouldn't be caught dead on them on a powder day, or a day after a powder day.

 

Sorry, let me revise that statement. I skied two runs at Blue Mountain on a powder day with them, walked out to my car, and got my Gotama's.

 

Also, take that review with a grain of salt. It says "but when it comes to short-radius turns, the Volkl Mantras take quite a bit of muscle work to get them to do what you want." The Mantra's are way too twitchy to be skiing groomers out west. They're much more suited to east coast terrain. At 22m, they feel like slalom skis to me. I skied them one day at Snowmass on a bluebird day two days after it snowed. The groomers had just a bit of non-groomed snow on top for me to back off, just as I would on SL skis. I also would argue that they're NOT a smooth ride. You feel everything, not very much dampening in the ski. Root skied both my Got's and Mantra's through chowder at Blue, and he was getting bucked around (as do I) on the Mantra's. The Got's just truck through chowder. It really boils down to they're not wide enough, not dampened enough, and require too much attention to be skiing off groomers.

 

Granted, I don't know how much this applies to the junior models, but it doesn't look like they made junior Mantra's in 2011, but it was more to correct Sib's misunderstanding of the Volkl line.

[sibhusky]

The POINT is that the ski bending is good.

 

And, Jeff, if you weren't such a gaper, you'd be able to ski them on anything. I think your requirement to use bigger skis is just a sign of how much help you need to ski certain conditions. Or a conviction that anything bigger must be better.

[sibhusky]

Type 3 just means he likes his bindings cranked up, it means ZIP when it comes to actual ability. There's all kinds of idiots out there cranking up their bindings to make up for the fact that their balance is off.

[AtomicSkier]

The POINT is that the ski bending is good.

 

And, Jeff, if you weren't such a gaper, you'd be able to ski them on anything. I think your requirement to use bigger skis is just a sign of how much help you need to ski certain conditions. Or a conviction that anything bigger must be better.

 

LOL...I have Mantra's...I can tell you how they ski . You have reviews of Mantra's where people talk about their inability to turn quickly . Sure, I could ski them on anything, but why? I want the best ski for the conditions so I can focus on enjoying the conditions

 

Why do I like big skis? Long skis truck, short skis suck. Me (190cm), Doug (193cm), JohnnyLaw (197cm), and JohnnyStyle (194cm) all ski on skis longer then 190cm... JohnnyLaw and Doug even ski them at Blue every day. I've been there done that with short skis. The fad of short skis is over. The stability, power, and dampening of long skis is undeniable.

[Glenn]

Still... even though it got deleted as did Justo's comment. Weak sauce Jeff.

[sibhusky]

Jeff thinks this is his personal playground and uses it to "spin" discussions all the time. No news there.

 

I remember when this site was in its infancy and was a spin off from a site that had corporate-type moderation (no criticism of the ski area allowed), now it's "moderated" solely to please Jeff.

[Timeless]

Not to de-rail the important parts of this thread regarding who's the best skier, who knows the most about skis and the benefits of moderation on message boards.......

 

However, in the Junior range, there seems to be little to choose between the gotama and the mantra in construction or width (both 80mm waist at 128cm length), only that the "goat" has the rocker.

 

Does anyone on here have enough recollection of their younger days to know how bad it feels to ride overly long ski's in soft off-piste snow? How specific should I be about the length given how fast the little f'er is growing. And please let's not get back into the "my ski's longer than yours...." discussions.

[mbike-ski]

I'M THE BEST SKIER ON THIS FORUM!!!!!!

[toast21602]

Still... even though it got deleted as did Justo's comment. Weak sauce Jeff.

 

why is shit getting deleted again? by the time i get to it, it's just lame bickering.

 

I'M THE BEST SKIER ON THIS FORUM!!!!!!

 

agreed. just because it's all caps.

[Justo8484]

Thanks jeff

[Johnny Law]

Blah blah blah too much talk the mantra is shit its for wankers that cant sku you have the mechanics you can carve a two by four it aint the ski its the skier