Nice write up about Sno

[Shadows]

bring back ozzfest?

[Santa Clauss]

In all honesty, and I know this may seem a little naieve, but could the paper possibly be horribly miss leading? Because it seems as if they're still good on their mortgage, which is upwards of $10,000,000 and were all worked up over $1.5M? I mean look at the construction of cove, they were really fuckn late, they wasted an entire season, is it possible that they could be in dispute with the contracting company? There were big issues with their property value and the owed taxes, all I'm saying is I'm not giving up on them until it's official. All were seeing are rumors. I'll be up at the job fair to meet with the GM on the 5th to talk to him about my company integrating into this season, it's an action sports photography company.

 

I know it in part would take away from PASR, but we're a long way off from being able to compete.

 

Check it out, we have some sample pictures under media, and the forums are completely empty. please mind the grammar, my web guy likes to do his own thing.

 

www.SponsorMyFace.com

Edited October 28, 2011 by Santa

[Shadows]

sounds like an amateur porn site.

[Mess]

I love going to Sno. We have taken advantage of the cbs deals and got lift tickets for $25. Usually get their for first lift on Sunday morning. I enjoy the two black Diamonds Smoke and Boomer. Have never done White Lightning ( I need to learn to ski the bumps). Lifts are real slow and the Long haul lift is never running. If long haul was open the combo of Upper Fast track and Lower Fast track is one of the longer trails in Poconos.

[trackbiker]

Can't say I didn't see this coming..... Getting your power shut off is usually the final death knell.

Hopefully someone with experience running a ski area like Snow Time, Inc or Peak Resorts will pick it up. I think Peak is maxxed out right now so it could be a good opportunity for someone like Snow Time. But with the liens and debt the price will likely be too high or make it too difficult to make a quick sale. I still think an experienced operator could make a go of Sno.

 

To all the Elk naysayers who think Elk should put in a high speed lift etc., Seems like Elk's management is doing a pretty good job.

[Santa Clauss]

So KCSKI, do you have any more assurance for us or are you starting to get nervous?

 

I'm going to hold up my 100-1 odds and say the paper is miss leading and they'll be open this season. We don't know all the facts, and to blame money problems on the management is a little lame, I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than it looks and just because you have an account with PASR doesn't make you an expert. If you think you know all the answers, why aren't you running a ski resort?

 

Who doesn't like porn?

[snoskier]

9.5 million Mortgage

5 million loan from the state

1.5 million in taxes and receivables due

--------

16 million in total debt

 

that seems like a LOT!!! I mean even if open this year what is the long term plan you need to be selling a LOT of season passes at 600 a pop to make those number work. Even if you sell 1000 season passes that is only 600,000 dollars. Assume 50,000 skier visits at $25 per ticket is 1.25 Million. You are looking at maybe 2 million in income - I don't know how you pay the operating expenses let alone start to service the debt. Between the state loan (900K per year) and taxes (250K) per year you have 950K to pay operating expense. You still have 9.5 M in mortgage which at zero interest is 300K over 30 years.

 

Income

passes 600K

visits 1.25M

Other 500K

 

Subtotal 2.35M

 

Expenses

taxes 250K

state loan 900K

employees 250K

mortgages 500K

 

subtotal 1.9 M

 

These are back of the napkin numbers and they are very rough, but given them you have maybe 400K to pay for COGS and operating expenses. Yikes.

 

 

If you market it they will come. If you have no one running marketing and you give them no budget .... they wont come.

[toast21602]

$25 a ticket is very generous. but still, they are screwed if the facts are accurate.

[trackbiker]

Good back of the napkin numbers, snoskier. Sno is not worth $16 million, waterpark and all.

How many season passes are they going to sell and school ski clubs are they going to sign up with that negative publicity?

I give them about a 50/50 chance of opening this year and that's if an angel investor steps in or possibly under Chapter 11.

[skier17]

You never know about the investor. They had one step in a few years ago when the concession company from the stadium (CPI) stepped in and bought into Sno. That was around when they were bouncing many of the payroll checks. I think it will be much tougher to get one this time though with the word out that they are having the troubles that they are. I hope something good happens. Would hate to see the mountain just sit there. Not only from the skiing and boarding side of things, but the seasonal jobs they provide. They might not pay the best but it is nice seasonal part time work for many.

[Ride Delaware ?]

It I definitely a boon to the local economy. I don't think anyone would argue there. I'm sure it really helps infuse money into the hotel and restaurant industry in the surrounding area also. I really dont want to see any resort sit vacant, especially one that has had most of its infrastructure, except for lifts, significantly upgraded in the recent past. I don't know where hey will get it from, but I'm hoping they get the cash infusion they need from somewhere fast...

[guitar73]

hopefully the investor is from out of town and has many other resorts in its portfolio so it can absorb the losses incurred by montage mtn. and I say out of town b/c they need someone with a different mentality than those who have run montage in the past.

[millerm277]

hopefully the investor is from out of town and has many other resorts in its portfolio so it can absorb the losses incurred by montage mtn. and I say out of town b/c they need someone with a different mentality than those who have run montage in the past.

 

The place is most likely not losing money. It was full on the weekends and does a good night business. That owners have made poor business decisions and taken on too much debt for the amount of money Sno makes, is not the same issue.

 

Assuming I'm right, it's not a terribly unattractive place to buy. It's got a good market and skier base, it'll clear a good amount of money a year, and assuming you can run it halfway competently, you shouldn't have to worry about it losing value. The infrastructure is in pretty good shape as far as ski areas go, it's got a good snowmaking system and the lifts are in fine shape (with the possible exception of Long Haul) even if they're slow.

[guitar73]

The place is most likely not losing money. It was full on the weekends and does a good night business. That owners have made poor business decisions and taken on too much debt for the amount of money Sno makes, is not the same issue.

 

of course it's the same issue: it becomes the same issue at the bottom line. you could be making zillions of dollars from tickets, concessions, swag, etc but be taking on zillions +1 dollars in debt, you're still in the hole.

 

Assuming I'm right, it's not a terribly unattractive place to buy.

 

i can agree with that assumption. someone (or some company) with a good business plan and the means to execute that plan would do wonders for montage mtn.

[Ride Delaware ?]

I'm guessing he meant that its operating revenue is greater than its operating losses if we put aside the debt. Some type of bankruptcy is probably in the works if no sale is...

[guitar73]

I'm guessing he meant that its operating revenue is greater than its operating losses if we put aside the debt.

 

maybe that's what he meant, but that's not what he wrote. although, i do that kind of stuff all the time, lol.....

[Ride Delaware ?]

I also didn't realize that Sno was such a young mountain. All the articles I read said it was begun in 1984. I know that was in the skiing heyday, but I figured that most had opened well before then...

[moe ghoul]

I've meant to go for the past few years but end up at Elk every time. Maybe Sno should try and compete with a top park scene unless they already have one since Elk doesn't have much offer.

[millerm277]

of course it's the same issue: it becomes the same issue at the bottom line. you could be making zillions of dollars from tickets, concessions, swag, etc but be taking on zillions +1 dollars in debt, you're still in the hole.

 

I meant it as Ride Delaware suggested, sorry if I was unclear.

 

And I think Montage/Sno is one of the newest ski areas on the East Coast, if not the newest entirely on the EC. I can't think of anything that's opened since.

[Santa Clauss]

They certainly did try to compete with the park scene. Chevy rev tour, 22' half pipe? Planet snowtools..

 

The mountain is in view of a good chunk of the valley, tens of thousands of people can look out their back door and see the mountain. Even if the terrain sucked (which in my opinion doesn't), good marketing could make that place a good mine.

 

We can keep speculating on their status, I think we can all agree there in for a tough time.

 

I really think they'll be open this season, but the lack of communications with the media and trying to put the fire out does concern me. If it was my resort, I'd certainly be trying my hardest to convince my customers that my company was still good to go.

 

*fingers crossed*

 

Gold mine*

[snoskier]

Santa's comments make a good point. I think the biggest problem is an utter lack of marketing and communication. The lack of communication with the media is a massive problem, but underscores their utter lack of marketing effort. Understanding the mountain might not have a ton of cash there are low cost marketing options they can use. For lack of knowledge or ability they just don't.

The mountain could be good as the terrain is solid and the snow making is some of the best in PA. The mountain cannot handle the crowds of blue, but it could handle a lot more people than it does.

 

I hope they can turn it around. But, I have a feeling when they open no one will show up and the owners ask why are our numbers down. Great for me this year as I get to ski empty slopes, but terrible for the long term.

Edited November 2, 2011 by snoskier

[Ride Delaware ?]

I think the biggest issue is that they don't have a sustained customer base from year to year, meaning a long track record of people coming back year in and year out. Every time they build a base they seem to change ownership. Elk has proven you don't even need to update your website if people know your rep. I really wish they had more interaction, especially in terms of their website (which is up there on PAs worst list) and social media (not even an updated Facebook page at the least). This is definitely a new trend that has worked well. Look at Magic Mountain. They are a fledgling co op (partnership) with a strong skier base and management that updates their website and Facebook daily. Most of the time its the GM or AGM. They have next to no marketing budget. Even Blue is trying to add a dedicated member to their team to update social media etc. I think the biggest part of the problem right now is NO communication. Nobody can get in contact with anyone, their website has infrequent updates, and they haven't responded to any of the media that say they are in the whole. Even if they are in trouble, they should be communicating to say what they are doing about it. They are losing customer faith and customers who will assume they are going downhill. I'm sure this is killing their SP sales. They just need to start small and work their way up. This is clearly the least of their issues, but a little talking would go a long way.

[mbike-ski]

it was that damn cartoon moose logo!

 

 

all kidding aside - i don't follow the details of sno but it seems like that was a good indictor of the amatuerish level of management and marketing of the mountain

[guitar73]

it was that damn cartoon moose logo!

 

seriously! that was the single worst move they could have made. there was no reason to change the name from montage mtn. poor branding on their part.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Wasn't montage crowded in the 90s? I remember visiting around 1994 and it was packed.

Crowded is all relative I guess, but I learned to ski there in 93' and I remember it being busy, but not super crowded on a Saturday night. That was when the majority of the terrain was above the lodge...