Binding advice

[vinnyv11]

Starting to look at the sale prices for ski's and have no clue what kind/size of ski binding I need. Looking for some advice.

[phillycore]

Unless you plan on ramping your game up to include back country, park skiing, or hucking shit don't put too much thought into it as long as it has a din of 12+ you're going to be pretty good for what you are skiing as I don't see it being set any higher than 8 anyway. I've personally always felt that buying the bindings recommended by the shop that you plan on having them installed at is the best way. (this only applies if you trust your shop.. But if you don't, you shouldn't be having them fuck with your gear anyway... Right) Just like anything else in the industry though you get what you pay for.... The cheaper the binding the shittier the spring and more plastic that's on it.

[phillycore]

Oh... This is jmo, from my experience and I'm sure that others will disagree based upon theirs. I was 330# at one point using a marker Griffon and not exactly taking it easy on my equipment whatsoever... Zero issues to date even though I'm 100# lighter now. Some people think markers are shit. They work for me and the shop I trust for my needs trusts them as well... Enough said for me.... To each their own, there is no one right answer just like there is no right answer in picking a ski or jacket, etc... .

[indiggio]

I've been skiing Marker's the past two skis and have not had any problems with them either.

 

I currently love Line skis as the guy who started it came from the east coast, so he should know a thing or two about making skis that work around here.

[poconovfr]

From the shop guy.....they're all good. A binding company wouldn't make it in this market if they were crap. I ski Marker Jesters. Solid binding a bit heavy but so am I. Keep the din minimum of a 12. The more cash the nicer the binding.

[Johnny Law]

Markers are shit.

 

Lets get in the time machine and provide you with actual information.

 

8000 years ago it snows, man takes wood planks and stands on them, realizes this is a pretty hot way to get around in snow and is kinda fun. Man realizes you need some straps for control. Awesome but that plank or a ski is now a giant lever with thousands of pounds of force to snap your tibia and due to the torque its a spiral fracture. In 2013 you get a sweet erector set called an external fixator for spiral fractures, in 1900 you were lucky if they didn't cut your leg off.

 

Fast forward to the early 1900's man is pretty fucking good at skiing, millions of people are taking trains all over the EC to ski and watch truly balls to the walls skiers. Dudes are hitting 60mph at the Thunderbolt and Toni Matt just hucked the headwall at Tuxs, this strap shit though has become a major problem, estimated to be a 1% chance for a skier for every year they ski. So next you get Kandahar style cable bindings, the spademen and the cubco.

 

Eventually these crap out but the idea, a pivot under the toe blows up in a revolutionary binding called the look nevada in 1950. The Nevada which every binding afterwards is based on uses at first a single pivot and then slightly later a duel finger pivot on the toe, then in 62 they add in the Grand Prix heal with allows for upward release from the heal and pretty much owns the market until everyone else copies their design. Every single binding on the market is a Look Nevada with better materials and an afd, even touring bindings are a look nevada with some kind of bar system.

 

All bindings can do the following, heal release is a pretty much straight up fashion, toe release almost 180 degrees, no true upwards only no matter what they say. Here is what they can't do, Phantom foot, BIAD, a slip and catch, these are all specific types of injuries to the knee that currently plague the industry, the supposed fix is a lateral heal release that is decoupled to the vertical heal release but nobody has actually made this work.

 

So really the only difference in bindings is moderate levels of build quality and materials and elasticity, essentially how much you can get out of order before the binding lets you out. A long long time ago Look made the SE2 a revolutionary idea in which the entire toe piece pivoted up, to this day this is the only true pure vertical release toe piece. Problem was it would let you out alot and this is far worse than a binding not releasing because once the skis are off physics takes over and your traveling in a straight line. Lots of people got seriously hurt and the industry had a revelation in that retention is often far better than release because blunt force trauma ( the binding releases prematurely and you crash into a tree) often is many times worse than a blown ACL.

 

So look dicked a little with the old Nevada design and came out with the FKS, the FKS has the most elasticity on the market. Its going to give you the most time to get your shit together before it lets you out. This is important because it allows you to run the binding at a lower DIN which is good for your knees while at the same time only letting you out when you need to come out.

 

Marker is a shitty company that makes shitty plastic toys they copied from Look, after they shit the bed in the 50's/60's with their own shit that never worked and eventually sold to 4frnt (4frnt did a major redesign) favors release. You need to be a very very smooth skier to ride markers at similar DIN as a look assuming you are a decent skier and give the ski a little work out. So marker skiers compensate by running at a much higher DIN, its a hammer approach to a scalpel problem and is the singular reason they have a 22 DIN consumer binding.

 

Buy a look binding or re badged look sold under the Rossi name, shit buy a solly biding if you must but for the love of god do not buy a Marker, Tyrolia or the re-badged Atomic shit with blinking lights and unobtanium all which do jack shit.

 

I really liked the FKS155 which I don't think they sell anymore though Jeff apparently can get them. The FKS 18 is an all metal workhorse that will last a life time however some people don't like running a binding at the lowest end of the DIN spectrum. I prefer the older P series but the newish PX series is a direct drive which most people prefer, it is a high quality binding that got the design right in terms of elasticity vs retention.

 

Do not listen to people that work in shops around here unless you know and trust them, shitty 18 year olds read a tech manual at Buckmans and think they know what the fuck they are talking about which they don't. This ski industry has a list of shit that didn't work/hurt people a mile fucking long, Solly two years back put out a tech fitting boot that was shitty from the start and it fucking changed people's lives and not for the better.

 

If your mounting bindings a ski can do two no problem, three with helicoils or if the ski has some metal, four if you like to live dangerously but by four there is pattern interference and your riding those fuckers on the tails.

 

Justo if I remember right has alot of knowledge about the current PX series and I know Jeff rides them so if you want a specific recommendation maybe ask one of them.

 

There is a totally different alternative in tech/dynafit bindings but they require lots of $$$ and a need to go uphill or long flats.

[NMSKI]

Good shit. I always enjoy a good stroll through ski equipment history.

 

I'm on Look Pivots right now and they've been working out real well for me.

 

Vinny, I've got some of last year's Salomon STH 14s that I'd give you a nice PASR discount on if you're interested. I liked them, but I got new skis and left them on my old ones.

[poconovfr]

I must be a very very smooth skier to run them at an 8 and don't come out. To be honest I haven't seen a binding I liked in years. Easy on the shop guys around the mountains most of us have been around a long while.

[Justo8484]

i'd echo pretty much everything johnny said with the exception of the 4frnt thing. marker had that binding on the nordica beast before 4frnt licensed them from vist.

 

i know people that have marker bindings and love them, and the toe and heel on the jester/griffin/duke is a huge upgrade over the previous biometric piece of junk, but i don't trust them. i've personally blown up the biometric toe catastrophically and have seen others do the same. i've got friends who have injured their knees when the binding definitely should have released and it didn't, and others who have almost gotten seriously hurt when it did release and it shouldn't have. this was with the new style binding, not the biometric toe/twincam heel older style. their biggest claim with that binding is that it's got such a wide footprint on the ski, but a px14+ or piivot/fks actually has a wider mounting pattern and AFD than the marker binding.

 

all said and done, i think salomon makes a solid all mountain binding with a safe toe and solid heel. i don't like em for park riding personally, but that's irrelevant here. until something new comes along that blows me away, i'll stick to pivots for all my skis,

[Johnny Law]

I must be a very very smooth skier to run them at an 8 and don't come out. To be honest I haven't seen a binding I liked in years. Easy on the shop guys around the mountains most of us have been around a long while.

I didn't mean the older guys who have been around, I'm just saying there are bunch of young bucks running around various shops and they don't know a damn thing other than what marketing people and the tech manual tells them.

 

Smooth is a good thing, I wish I didn't take the hammer approach so often.

 

 

i'd echo pretty much everything johnny said with the exception of the 4frnt thing. marker had that binding on the nordica beast before 4frnt licensed them from vist.

 

i know people that have marker bindings and love them, and the toe and heel on the jester/griffin/duke is a huge upgrade over the previous biometric piece of junk, but i don't trust them. i've personally blown up the biometric toe catastrophically and have seen others do the same. i've got friends who have injured their knees when the binding definitely should have released and it didn't, and others who have almost gotten seriously hurt when it did release and it shouldn't have. this was with the new style binding, not the biometric toe/twincam heel older style. their biggest claim with that binding is that it's got such a wide footprint on the ski, but a px14+ or piivot/fks actually has a wider mounting pattern and AFD than the marker binding.

 

all said and done, i think salomon makes a solid all mountain binding with a safe toe and solid heel. i don't like em for park riding personally, but that's irrelevant here. until something new comes along that blows me away, i'll stick to pivots for all my skis,

 

I didn't know they had that VIST design on their own product, I know they spent a butt ton of time trying to get it work like they wanted but I thought they threw their hands up and said fuck it and sold it off. It would be interesting to know what went on internally, I know they spent a hell of alot of money on it and reps use the bankruptcy word though that is probably general puffery.

 

The only thing I didn't like about Solly's was when they had the manual forward pressure screws in the toe wings, without locktite they would slowly run out and all the sudden your launching out of the binding every ten seconds. Though to be fair this did result in some pretty epic double ejects.....

 

Somebody is going to get rich on the lateral heal release, it fixes phantom foot and slip and catch which are 80% of knee injuries and knee injuries are about 40% of total snow sports injuries. The mechanical binding seems so old school in such an electronic world but battery tech certainly would be a hold up. I know Marker has screwed around with an electronic binding since the early 70s. With a proper battery an e binding could theoretically kill it, particularly if it could "learn" and individuals skiing.

 

The line reactor was a terrible product but had some interesting features, I wonder if you could make it work with an all metal housing. Its ability to release with a lateral force directly behind the binding should have been a game breaker.......

 

I did forget about ramp angle, if you are used to a particular binding it has a specific ramp angle or the difference in height between the toe and the heal. This varies by manufacturer and is generally a positive number however some touring bindings are negative ramp and that can be very weird in a subtle way. Some people can really tell a difference others can not.

[vinnyv11]

Didn't mean to create a fire storm with this but my first pair of skis where integrated so I'm stepping in uncharted water here.

 

Thanks for all the insight. I'm down to the following:

 

Look pivot 14

Salomon Sth 14

Rossi fks 140

Rossi axial2 120

 

Probably going to grab off of backcountry.com since most local shops aren't carrying. Not to start another war but any suggestions for a shop to mount them. Only close options are buckmans and salters.

 

Pricing seems to swing a good bit between each so

[indiggio]

Ok, I can't wait to hear the response to these... <flame on>

 

http://www.kneebinding.com/KB-HomePage.aspx

[mbike-ski]

i think salters will ONLY mount markers

[indiggio]

Didn't mean to create a fire storm with this but my first pair of skis where integrated so I'm stepping in uncharted water here. Thanks for all the insight. I'm down to the following: Look pivot 14 Salomon Sth 14 Rossi fks 140 Rossi axial2 120 Probably going to grab off of backcountry.com since most local shops aren't carrying. Not to start another war but any suggestions for a shop to mount them. Only close options are buckmans and salters. Pricing seems to swing a good bit between each so

 

I've had some good luck with these guys.

 

http://www.untracked.com/

 

Beat them up a little and they'll give you a good price.

 

They'll also mount bindings, but say that you need to have them set/checked locally after you receive em.

[AngryHugo]

i think salters will ONLY mount markers

 

true statement

[Johnny Law]

i think salters will ONLY mount markers

 

Crazy, so if you bring a pair of skis with another binding you bought some where else they won't mount them ?

 

Ok, I can't wait to hear the response to these... <flame on>

 

http://www.kneebinding.com/KB-HomePage.aspx

 

This is actually the holy grail so to speak.

 

The problem with modern bindings is they only release from the toe. So for phantom foot or a backwards twisting fall, the femur locks into the hip, the force of the fall travels not into the tibia but across the tibia due to the lack of force down at the foot hence phantom foot. Obviously the universe seeks equilibrium and that force has to go somewhere well it picks the weakest spot which is your acl and pop goes the allograft. This used to be about 70% of all knee injuries but with death of straight skis it seems the numbers have gone way down.

 

The other biggy is slip and catch or valgus external rotation, essentially your body moves forward in relation to the ski with the addition of an outward twist and you get essentially the same thing going on as phantom foot. No force reaches the foot and bye bye goes the ACL. This is believed to be the biggest knee wrecker in the game right now.

 

The third I mentioned BIAD or Boot Induced Anterior Draw is when you overshoot a LZ and instinctively you shoot your legs straight out the tibia moves too far forward relative to the femur and rips the ACL, this also happens when you get hit from behind.

 

For the first two a heal releasable biding like the knee binding would really eliminate that type of injury. So why hasn't the industry done anything about this ? The problem is in general skiing there is an awful lot of lateral heal force and its a mechanical ski binding so it can't tell if your about to rupture your ACL or if your just doing the Pocono shuffle and again pre-release is worse than not releasing. So the dude who invented the knee binding was a look dude who actually worked on the SE2 team I mentioned above. His solution is to decouple the vertical heal release from the lateral heal release. Problem is it never really got off the ground, he lives in Stowe and brought on some capital guy to try to take this thing commercial some shit went down and cue the lawsuit. Eventually it was dismissed or maybe they settled, its doesn't really matter, he got some IP and the company got the binding and his agreement to stop talking shit about them in public.

 

At a demo last year these were around and I didn't try them but others did and didn't have good things to say. If you had knee issues and were super smooth they would probably work but for the general populace they just don't hold you in enough.

 

Didn't mean to create a fire storm with this

LOL That one is on me, I'm certainly opinionated but really I just love to stir the pot a bit, it gets boring around here if everyone just loves each other and wants to give hugs.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Johnny Law

[JFskiDan]

Vinny, compare prices you find online with what the shops are putting out now. i have purchased skis online, but have always bought bindings from the ski shop. Most ski shops will charge about $75 to mount bindings to skis if you havent purchased either from them. most ski shops will charge $25 to mount bindings purchased from them, on skis you walk in with. I never felt the pricing online for bindings would over come the difference in the charge to mount.

[AngryHugo]

Crazy, so if you bring a pair of skis with another binding you bought some where else they won't mount them ?

 

I asked them if they could mount my Rossi FKS's on my Bibbys, and they said they only have a Marker jig, and that my skis were too wide for it. Pretty bizarre.

[vinnyv11]

Vinny, compare prices you find online with what the shops are putting out now. i have purchased skis online, but have always bought bindings from the ski shop. Most ski shops will charge about $75 to mount bindings to skis if you havent purchased either from them. most ski shops will charge $25 to mount bindings purchased from them, on skis you walk in with. I never felt the pricing online for bindings would over come the difference in the charge to mount.

 

That was my original plan but i'm having trouble finding anyone that carries the look's or fks.

[indiggio]

At a demo last year these were around and I didn't try them but others did and didn't have good things to say. If you had knee issues and were super smooth they would probably work but for the general populace they just don't hold you in enough.

 

LOL That one is on me, I'm certainly opinionated but really I just love to stir the pot a bit, it gets boring around here if everyone just loves each other and wants to give hugs.

 

Actually saw a SP with them one day at Blue. I asked him how they were working for him and he said he hadn't had a release either way (forced/premature) as of yet, so he couldn't tell.

 

There's a few threads over on EpicSki about them. Seems everyone thinks they're a gimmic.

 

Like pro racers, they'd rather have the DINs torqued to the max than suffer a premature release. But is this a good thing for the weekend warrior, typically not going full-tilt downhill?

[love2ski]

I like Marker's. I have had Griffon and Jesters. I know that Buckman's has a huge selection of bindings from Marker and Salomon, and think they can mount pretty much anything! I know a friend of mine got Rossi/Look pivots there last year or the year before.

just looked and some are one sale.

 

http://www.buckmans.com/store/adult-ski-bindings-oscar_1019.aspx

[momskeeztoo]

Got the FKS's online, backcountry.com I think. They were recommended to me after I tore ACL by someone who I feel knows a lot about gear. Bear Creek will mount them. Ask for Finelli, not sure if I am spelling his name right.

[Johnny Law]

Like pro racers, they'd rather have the DINs torqued to the max than suffer a premature release. But is this a good thing for the weekend warrior, typically not going full-tilt downhill?

 

The difference is with a Marker your compensating for the lack of elasticity with running a higher DIN. Where as with an FKS or something similar your running a lower DIN but the binding by design will give you a little more time if your getting funky.

 

So I run 7's across the board and ski long radius skis relatively fast all the time. If I was on a marker I would have to run 9's.

 

Its a personal thing but I can tell you the industry favors retention over "pre-release", 20mph into a tree is going to fuck up your life generally, 30mph + and that helmet is just a nice container for all the nasty bits while an ACL is shitty for sure I can't think of anyone dieing due to a blown ACL, I mean sure somebody died from surgery complications but not directly from the ACL.

 

Last I heard blunt force trauma from shit like trees and lift towers are about 50% of fatal accidents overall and almost all of the fatal accidents east of the Mississippi.

[guitar73]

That was my original plan but i'm having trouble finding anyone that carries the look's or fks.

 

alpina carries the FKS and rossi axial2 120's. i have the axial2 120's and i love them.

 

i also am not a fan of marker bindings....but they were on all of the skis that i demo'd out in aspen. i was having major problems getting into the bindings, even though they were set to my usual DIN setting of 7. it got so bad that I told the tech my problem. i was surprised by their reaction that i hated the marker bindings. anyhow, they put the DIN to just under 7 and that seemed to do the trick. i skied some pretty gnarly stuff and loads of bump runs without any prereleases at the lower setting.

[phillycore]

I said to each their own and there is no right answer.... I stand by my opinion and respect everyone else's as well.