Killington Village Receives ACT 250 Approval

[Ride Delaware ?]

From today's Rutland Herald

KILLINGTON — A local developer has received a permit to begin a $100 million project, but the permit conditions might prompt the developer to appeal.

On Monday, the District 1 Environmental Commission issued an Act 250 permit to SP Land Company to allow the developer to begin the first phase of Killington Village. The permit has been a long time coming, and SP Land President Steven Selbo expressed a reserved form of celebration Monday night.

“I’m excited to take this step, is the best way to put it,” Selbo said, noting SP Land filed the permit application in February 2012. “I’m happy we’ve gotten to this step.”

SP Land actually received two permits Monday.

The first was to construct a 1,276-car parking lot and to realign Killington Road and the parking lot of the Killington Grand Resort Hotel.

The second permit allows SP Land to construct 193 residential units; a 32-unit subdivision; 31,622 square feet of commercial and retail space; and a 77,000-square-foot skier services building to replace the Ramshead and Snowlodge base lodges.

The proposed conditions surrounding the second permit have proven the most contentious for SP Land and the three organizations with party status including: Rutland Regional Planning Commission, Southern Windsor County Regional Planning Commission and Two Rivers-Ottauquechee Regional Commission.

In January, the three commissions sent a letter to the District 1 Environmental Commission, suggesting that after the completion of phase one, SP Land be compelled to conduct a traffic corridor study along Killington Road, Route 4, Route 100 and Route 103 arteries from Killington to Interstate 89 and I-91.

SP Land objected to this condition, asserting in a letter in January the proposed permit conditions “as a whole are well outside the scope of what is permissible under Act 250.”

During hearings in 2012, the Agency of Transportation, SP Land and the three planning commissions agreed with the findings of a traffic study showing no mitigation measures would be required for phase one.

The Rutland Regional Planning Commission withdrew its support of making the condition mandatory, but the other two planning commissions maintained their collective position.

In issuing the permit, the District 1 Environmental Commission decided to make the study mandatory. SP Land would be obligated to pay for as much as 50 percent of the study, with a cap of $25,000. The Agency of Transportation and the three regional planning commissions would fund the balance of the study.

The scope of the study is unclear; it refers to studying “traffic impacts from the Phase I development upon the Killington Road/US4/VT103 corridors from Killington to I-91 and I-89.” There is no reference to Route 100.

Selbo said he has not decided if he will appeal the decision.

“We’re just letting this sink in right now,” Selbo said. “I’m cautiously optimistic we will find a way to work with everyone.”

SP Land has 15 days from the date the permit was issued to file a motion to alter the permit.

A last-minute suggestion from the Rutland Regional Planning Commission to force SP Land to include 495 units of affordable housing was not included as a permit condition.

 

Just saw this on AlpineZone. Pretty big news for the East Coast's busiest ski resort. They have been trying to push this through for years. An outside company is developing the land which requires massive infrastructure improvements, one of which is rerouting Killington Road to allow for placement of the village. Only Phase 1 was approved. The eventual plan supposedly calls for 2,300 units, but only the first 220 have been approved. This plan also includes a mandatory traffic study after Phase 1 is complete. The developer is concerned because that traffic study could be used against him to limit the following phases, which would likely be where most of the profit would be made since the initial phases will be swallowed up by infrastructure costs. What does this likely mean for the everyday skier? Increased prices on almost everything and parking being located farther away, some of it out of walking distance. I would not be surprised if parking close to the base eventually becomes a paid affair. One of the nicest things about Killington is the access to free parking close to the base lodges.

 

I like concept of villages, but I also like the access road scene as it is now. I can't see there being this much real estate demand, but I could be wrong. Killington already gets a bunch of grief, and becoming a sold out glitzy resort probably wont help their street cred, but more power to them. I'll continue to support them early season, since they are the only show in town, but I am definitely glad I picked the condo at Sugarbush to call home. The village will likely not have a visible effect on my early season riding there outside an increased push to open Snowshed earlier in the season for ski in/out.

 

Furthermore, this is seen as the first step in the ultimate plan to go through with the Pico interconnect. Personally, I like Pico the way it is and would hate to see the increased traffic over there. If I understand this correctly, Killington already has the approved interconnect plans and permits, but will not begin construction until parts of the village are complete. They continue to pay a boatload of money to renew these permits each year because they don't believe they could get them renewed should they allow them to lapse.

[Johnny Law]

hahahahhahaahhaha remember this shit and then watch how this shit actually goes.

[Ride Delaware ?]

hahahahhahaahhaha remember this shit and then watch how this shit actually goes.

I actually expected a rather lengthy response from you on this. I think they are going to have a world of trouble getting enough financing for the project, much less actually getting past phase I.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Doesn't Killington already have enough lodging? When they were doing 1 million skier visits a year in the late 90s they had enough. Now they do like 700k

Last years new skier friendly approach really brought the skiers back in droves... I think they reported 10% annual increase in skier visits, so I think they are back somewhere in the low 800k range.

 

To the lodging point, I think there is a decent amount of lodging, but the quality has decreased as the skier visits did. Many of the condo units are dated and many of the motels, especially down by Pico, have recently gone out of business. In fact, one if the chain hotels on the access road was converted into condo units. I think that we will see a need for more units if they can recapture their lost business.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Killington skier visits were up 22% last year.

 

http://mountaintimes.info/news/features/2013/07/vermont-ski-industry-alive-and-well/

I was going off memory, but I knew it was up a decent amount. I'm guessing they are somewhere in the mid 800k range, so they may need some more lodging. I'm not saying this is the answer though. It would take 30 years to sell 2,300 units. Considering Sugarbush has only managed to sell 10 of their high priced units in Rice Brook in a year, I think it would be a stretch. They still plan to build another couple hundred as well. Still 4 more phases left to go.

[Ride Delaware ?]

If this winter is warm like they are saying they could lose alot of skier visits as well.

Warm? Accuweather is the only one I have seen as warm, and that's only for the first month or so. One farmer's almanac says average and one says bitterly cold and snowy. So?

[RootDKJ]

The plan is dumb. We are going to lose two convenient parking lots. Rams Head and Snowshed. Rams Head provides easy access to both Rams Head and Snowden lifts without having to drive up to the K1 parking. Snowshed is easy access to the Skye Peak Gondi.

[Ride Delaware ?]

The plan is dumb. We are going to lose two convenient parking lots. Rams Head and Snowshed. Rams Head provides easy access to both Rams Head and Snowden lifts without having to drive up to the K1 parking. Snowshed is easy access to the Skye Peak Gondi.

I usually always park at Rams Head if it is open, take Caper to the GN and then down to the Snowdon or to the K-1 (albeit a slight hike to actually get to the entrance). I only drive to the KBL if it is early season. If/when this goes through, I will likely alter my mid season parking arrangements. I'll probably park at the Skyeship Stage 1 (super easy on Rt 4) or drive up to Bear. I still don't see this happening for years because I dont think they will be able to find the financing to go through with it.

[Johnny Law]

I actually expected a rather lengthy response from you on this. I think they are going to have a world of trouble getting enough financing for the project, much less actually getting past phase I.

I know right I just couldn't muster the effort to post 10000 words as I was too busy laughing.

 

A killy village and Pico interconnect are the two white whales of NE skiing.

 

On the Pico interconnect the chances of that happening are like 1%. First and foremost there is an owl or something that is endangered to deal with, that is a 10 year process that is mega fucking bucks, additionally in VT the enviro peeps are strong. From SP's point of view what is the upside, mega resorts outside of LCC/BCC are a thing of the past and they have a infrastructure problem to deal with already so why add to that. They ripped out the top section of Ram's Head Quad and cut at least parts of the interconnect trail 15 years or so ago but that shit hasn't been seriously discussed in 10 years.

 

The village idea has been floating around since at least the early 90's with lots of groups getting permits and what not, the closest anyone ever got was the killington grand which is almost never full kinda like Killy in general.

 

Killy hit there peak in the early 90's right around the time ASC purchased them, at that point snowboarding was blowing up so lot's of new money and fewer destination type places to spend it. Developers figured out there were alot of existing places in VT that you could buy, blow some cash into with high speed lifts, new lodges and terrible faux euro villages and make some loot. Overnight Snow, Stratton, Bromely, Stowe, Okemo etc. got new owners with money to burn. Killy was no longer the place for NE skiers that weren't Kennedy types that went to the Bush. Now they have a fuck ton of lifts and lodges most of which see 40% of capacity and the whole thing unravels until the OG landholders, SP, finally buy the place back essentially in bankruptcy.

 

They have spent the last couple years getting rid of infrastructure they don't need and trying to get back some of that crowd they lost to the other mtns. As you so rightly pointed out the lodging in Killy is generally old and run down so to a certain extent the village makes sense however the access road peeps have money and influence and they aren't going to like this so expect a bitch fest from them. Additionally alot of the riders they lost are never coming back or at least they aren't doing the Killy only type trips of the past. Killy is always coming up with unrealistic plans were they regain the cache and riders they once had, these plans inevitably crap out at some point in the future or eventually lead to the next bankruptcy and purchase by new owner X who is totally gonna bring them back to the late 80's early 90's.

 

SP has significant assets, assuming the state and local gov't plays ball they probably can secure the funding. Will it work ? Probably not but it will be fun to watch them try.

 

As an aside I love Killy, I grew up skiing there alot, my family still goes there almost every year and it's a great mtn but the Beast of the East days are long gone and probably for good.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Climate change is making winters warm...u mad bro?

Not mad at all. Just waiting for you to provide your proof. Not of climate change, but long range forecasts calling for warm winter weather.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Long range forecasts don't mean anything.

Well, most of them haven't been Stoke Stompers. But your trying your hardest to make up for that. Arctic Ice is at a huge high. I'm keeping the faith.

[Johnny Law]

Well, most of them haven't been Stoke Stompers. But your trying your hardest to make up for that. Arctic Ice is at a huge high. I'm keeping the faith.

 

Long range stuff is your probabilities, it's not a guarantee, it's the weather services saying according to the data you have a 70% chance of a cold winter due to the three oscillations and you have a 20% chance of a normal winter and a 10% chance of a warmer winter. Obviously you can still end up with a warm winter and they weren't wrong additionally that will be presented as NWS says we are having a cold winter.

 

Weather is really really fucking complicated, the amount of variables in a storm are almost incalculable, furthermore when one adds in small variations in geography your really talking about stuff that is far beyond current human capabilities. We don't know enough, we don't have accurate enough models, we haven't observed every possible variation and we don't have the computing power, additionally nobody wants to pay to make some of those things better. You and I don't mean you RD I mean the global you, wants it's going to rain at 8am and be 50 degrees and at 10:23am it will stop raining and be 55 degrees etc etc etc which simply is not possible. The weather services are amazing, they are generally quite accurate which is a hell of an accomplishment

[RidgeRacer]

J law never disappoints.

 

If you want a village, go to Lake Placid. Place is awesome.

[guitar73]

If only they received the snowfall Stowe gets.

 

this, and if only whiteface wasn't so exposed to the wind, lol. i bet whiteface is an awesome place on powder days.

Edited October 10, 2013 by guitar73

[RidgeRacer]

If only they received the snowfall Stowe gets.

Would be nice since WF is a great mountain. Their only downfall is the lack of snow compared to VT

 

That being said, I would take WF over Killington any day of the week, regardless of snow.

[Ride Delaware ?]

J law never disappoints.

 

If you want a village, go to Lake Placid. Place is awesome.

Thats a big argument in the town against the Village at the mountain. Basically, although it is spread out, the town of Killington spent a bunch of money years ago to construct a sidewalk so everywhere on the access road was connected. They want to keep it an access road type village instead of having the people stay at the mountain at the newly constructed village. The village of Lake Placid is awesome. I think there would have been much less opposition at Killington if the village was built initially and then the access road businesses followed. I still think that the access road businesses will get their fair share of business, but like everything, if theres something to gripe about, people will find it, and blow it out of proportion.

[RootDKJ]

J law never disappoints.

 

If you want a village, go to Lake Placid. Place is awesome.

Or Stratton.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Killington isn't that good though at least for Vermont.

It's true. This is how I feel about Killington. It is the first "large scale" mountain you come to from the metropolitan areas. It has a combination of size, snowmaking, lodging, and trails. It gets 250" of snow a year and most seasons has the longest season in the east. However, out of the major Vermont mountains (Killington, Sugarbush, Stowe, Smuggs, and Jay), it gets the least amount of snow, is sold out, and has the most crowds. Killington is also the most accessible out of any of the resorts. It has limited access highways and four lane highways (2 each way), almost to its doorstep. That cuts down a lot on the travel time. Other resorts have highway access 90% of the way, but the last half hour or so is on slow two lane roads (one each way).

 

Like Johnny Law said, Killington has a special place in my heart. It was the first major resort I rode at, and the more I went there, the more I gained an appreciation for certain things below the surface. I really came to enjoy the secret stashes, the luxury of early season riding, and the elevation based stashes on the upper half of the mountain. Is it my favorite place in the world? No. But I still find things I enjoy about it and are unique to it.

 

Killington gets a bad rep at times, but it has a bunch going for it. It has easy access, a large assortment of lodging, decent natural, strong snowmaking, and good size. It isn't the best in the northeast, but I wont trash it. It is good for what it is.

[Johnny Law]

Or Stratton.

 

Root I love you dude but that is the representation of everything evil and unholy about modern skiing. Its another Intrawest faux euro monstrosity buttfucked in to an existing environment.

 

Stratton was a VT deal until the late 70's when the current owners bought Bromely. The next year the weather sucked and Moore and Munger bought Stratton on the cheap. They then sold Bromely to Magic Mtn and installed the gondy and began work on the village. Eventually they got old and sold Stratton off to the Japansese who then sold it to Intrawest in 94. At this point the village really took off, I mean that's Intrawest's deal. Show up, crap money into a shitty knock off village that looks exactly the same everywhere, add in some lifts and call it a day. When you inevitably shit the bed ask the Canadian gov't for money because you got them in a pickle over the Olympics.

 

It's ugly, it doesn't fit VT or Stratton, it's not organic and it furthers this concept that snow sports are a country club like experience as well as the real estate scam business model.

 

I hope these villages burn to the ground along with the 115$ ticket business model. Shit DV is in the 80's and they carry your skis and the food is amazing, for 100+ Stratton wants they better be giving blowjobs on the gondy.

[vinnyv11]

Killington was my first big mountain experience as well. I enjoyed the mountain but would like to go back again now that i'm a little more seasoned to see what the off map terrain has to offer. I had a great time when we went because of lodging and company but I wouldn't put it at the top of my list for VT mountains i've been to.

[Johnny Law]

Ride DE have u ever been snowboarding in northern Vermont?

 

You know I agree with you but here's the funny thing about the NEK and Killy. Alot of times the skiing is better at Killy.

 

I love Jay, I've had some of my best pow days at Jay, truly amazing experiences but the vast majority of the time it's an ice block in the middle of no where.

 

Stowe is the best mtn in the NE but all the gondy shit feeds to two trails, the one that crosses over to forerunner quad is a fucking disaster by noon. Spruce is a joke except for the racing trail and is jam fucking packed with newbs. Toll house is cool as shit but it's old and flat and that god damn double takes 20 mintues to go five yards. The quad is the real jem but again if it hasn't snowed your down to really 4 or 5 main trails that get beat to fuck.

 

Smuggs is cool but you got to go all the way around and they don't have the uphill capacity for the numbers they get. Also they have the meanest fucking lifites ever who can never shut up about putting the bar down.

 

BV is dope too but we both know that shit ain't even in the same universe as Killy.

 

Killy is the 2nd highest ski area mtn in VT, it has a billion places to stay and eat. It's 1 1/2 to 2 hours closer than Stowe and gets nearly as much snow. It has a mother fuck ton of trails and lifts, now alot of there trails intersect with alot of other trails which is dangerous with their clientele but you got a billion options in terms of how you get to lift X. Killy is cheaper and generally has a longer season. It also has a disk poma that is crazy cool with a handle and a launch that is even gnarlier than Cirque at Snowmass. Lastly if it's raining you can ride Skyeship and pretty much be dry.

 

You doing VT this year ? I thought you were going west only......

[Ride Delaware ?]

Ride DE have u ever been snowboarding in northern Vermont?

The farthest north I have been is Sugarbush, which geographically is right near the line for the upper 3rd of the state. Smuggs and Stowe arent even considered to be in the NEK. I will probably hit up Jay this season for at least a day. I havent had the luck to hit any of them on a powder day. Killington and Pico I have hit on powder days. What an experience. When its good, its good.

Or Stratton.

I quoted this one instead of JL's so I didnt have a page long quote. I completely agree with JL's assessment of the Intrawest make a faux western resort experience. No need for that at area in Southern VT.

 

The one place I will say that I was not bummed out about it, and completely understand why they did it, is Snowshoe, WV. First off, there was already the beginning of a village before they built it. Second, for where Snowshoe is, it is absolutely necessary to have a village and all the amenities that come with it. That place is absolutely in the middle of fucking nowhere. You would have to drive on some slow roads an hour each way to find all the amenities they have.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Killy is the 2nd highest ski area mtn in VT, it has a billion places to stay and eat. It's 1 1/2 to 2 hours closer than Stowe and gets nearly as much snow. It has a mother fuck ton of trails and lifts, now alot of there trails intersect with alot of other trails which is dangerous with their clientele but you got a billion options in terms of how you get to lift X. Killy is cheaper and generally has a longer season. It also has a disk poma that is crazy cool with a handle and a launch that is even gnarlier than Cirque at Snowmass. Lastly if it's raining you can ride Skyeship and pretty much be dry.

Another thing I really like about Killington is that they have a pretty solid upper mountain lift setup. I have been there at least twice when there have been elevation based snows. Since Killington supposedly has a 3k vert from top of Killington Peak to bottom of Skyeship Stage 1, there can be some different conditions.

 

First one I encountered was a rain snow event, and the snow line happened to be at the bottom of the K-1. I was raining at the bottom of Snowshed and Ramshead. I rode off the K-1 all day to the tune of about 6 inches of fresh (albeit sierra cement style pow). Second was an upslope event. I would say accumulation at the top of Killington peak was about 10 inches, 3-4 inches at the KBL, and a dusting in Rutvegas. I rode the NRT for 4 straight hours getting in some amazing early season powder (pretty damn dry) with some nice little tree runs off of Powerline. They ended with 22 inches the next day. Wish I could have stayed, but I had to attend a funeral in CT.

 

Say what you will, but being able to hit some legit powder when its raining everywhere else, thats fucking cool. Most places try to run t2b lifts and you lose that ability.

[RidgeRacer]

The Stratton deal isn't even that big. I wouldn't exen call it a village. It's one street of fauxness. Enough to annoy people I guess but it didn't bother me. The faux village at solitude reminded me of Stratton. What I could see from the lifts anyway.

 

 

[mbike-ski]

Stratton village was 1/3 or so vacant when I was there last year. after being out in the woods all morning on my xc stratton pond tour, the whole parking garage, crowds, village and flat mountain were a real downer - like a bad vermont version of new jersey.

 

thank god beer is good everywhere!