New lift?

[Lift Blog]

Word on the street is Okemo’s Green Ridge triple is Jack Frost bound. Anyone know where it would go?

[JFskiDan]

Rumor has it Big Boulder needs more help in the lift area than Frost.  

[toast21602]

  On 4/27/2021 at 12:16 PM, JFskiDan said:

Rumor has it Big Boulder needs more help in the lift area than Frost.  

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I think camelback would benefit fro ma new lift....

[EdBacon]

All of Frost's top to bottom lifts are 70s or 80s Borvigs which share pylons. The exception is the quad chair which was down for the entirety of the 19/20 season, but it doesn't make sense that they'd reduce capacity there. Likewise for any of the other paired lifts. A triple chair would reduce capacity, unless it was a replacement for one of the two beginner double chairs but isn't the Green Ridge triple a longer lift? 

[JFskiDan]

  On 4/29/2021 at 4:08 AM, EdBacon said:

All of Frost's top to bottom lifts are 70s or 80s Borvigs which share pylons. The exception is the quad chair which was down for the entirety of the 19/20 season, but it doesn't make sense that they'd reduce capacity there. Likewise for any of the other paired lifts. A triple chair would reduce capacity, unless it was a replacement for one of the two beginner double chairs but isn't the Green Ridge triple a longer lift? 

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This is kind of what i came up with as well, which is why i questioned why they werent sending what i guess is a decent lift to BB, which, other than i think the tannebaum lift, those lifts are rough.  

[toast21602]

  On 4/29/2021 at 10:10 AM, JFskiDan said:

This is kind of what i came up with as well, which is why i questioned why they werent sending what i guess is a decent lift to BB, which, other than i think the tannebaum lift, those lifts are rough.  

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BB will be closed in <5 years. 

[Schif]

Regardless of where on the two mountains this lift ends up it will surely be a different length than what it was replacing. When lifts get bought and moved do they typically order a new cable or is there a safe and economical way to cut and shorten or splice and lengthen the existing one? 

[JFskiDan]

  On 4/29/2021 at 11:28 AM, toast21602 said:

BB will be closed in <5 years. 

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Thats what i’m saying,....without saying it, since the lift relocation might be a rumor. 
 

all those degrees you got, and you give them five years?  Man thats being really generous. 

[toast21602]

  On 4/29/2021 at 1:11 PM, JFskiDan said:

Thats what i’m saying,....without saying it, since the lift relocation might be a rumor. 
 

all those degrees you got, and you give them five years?  Man thats being really generous. 

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Less than. Ya never know. We’ve been told every year for the last decade that Blue has been sold. Yet, here we are. 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

  On 4/29/2021 at 1:12 PM, toast21602 said:

Less than. Ya never know. We’ve been told every year for the last decade that Blue has been sold. Yet, here we are. 

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Everything on this forum turns to Blue talk.  I think Blue stepped up their terrain park game because they know Big boulder is going to become a lost ski area. 

[Schif]

I think as soon as we see lights being installed at Jack Frost we know the end is near for Boulder. Until then they fill a regional night skiing need. 

[JFskiDan]

  On 4/29/2021 at 3:00 PM, Schif said:

 Until then they fill a regional night skiing need. 

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I dont think Vail gives two fucks about filling a regional night skiing need.  Just my worthless 2 pennies, tho.  I lean towards the side that BB doesnt open this year.  They had a terrible time getting employees, they didnt even open tubing at either location.  I mean, tubing?  make some snow, spin some weird ass little tow rope thing, pay 4 employees, air up some tubes, and count money.  Tubing is so popular in the Poconos.....i guess because the truly talentless people from NY/NJ can do it.  

[RidgeRacer]

Night skiing is a money maker contingent solely on the amount of school, scout, club groups etc they can sell. Our school does ski club at BB and there are a few others in the area do as well but the massive amount of school ski clubs coming from the east (western NJ, stroudsburg etc.) are going to Shawnee or CB and the south / LV are going to Blue. That said I don't know how profitable (if at all) it would be for frost to offer night skiing.

For the record I don't think BB goes out of business. I've seen the place absolutely slammed on weekends with lessons and such when I taught there. Lake Harmony is a tourist destination. I'd be shocked if they shudder BB.

[JFskiDan]

  On 4/29/2021 at 4:55 PM, RidgeRacer said:

 

For the record I don't think BB goes out of business. 

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I will take that bet.  Anybody else?  

I dont disagree that night skiing is a money maker, or that Lake Harmony is a tourist destination.  But, i think you have to agree that they left a huge amount of money on the table not having tubing.  And what is considered a money maker to an independent operator, could be way different to what Vail feels is a money maker.  I dont think Vail really cares that the Pocono area relies on BB for the tourism industry.  

[trackbiker]

I don't see BB closing. Lots of condos and houses around Lake Harmony. I don't get the tubing not being open. Tubing does really well when the masses think about skiing and then see the cost of lift tickets, rentals, and lessons. I can just hear a lot of dads going, "Hey kids, Lets go tubing instead!" when they see the cost of skiing at a Vail resort.

[Schif]

I would love to be a fly on the wall of a Vail meeting where they talk about Big Boulder and Jack Frost. To me the issue is that you've got a resort group that doesn't fully understand the ins and outs of the super weird market that the Poconos is. At vail corporate I would be shocked if there are many people who naturally think that snow tubing is a big part of the ski business. Even if that was communicated to them when they bought the place it's hard to break preconceived notions. Eventually they will either figure it all out or they simply won't and the place will be seen as a loser to them. I doubt they will think too much about last year since it was a pandemic and everything was all sorts of messed up. Maybe they give boulder 5 years to see what happens but their attitudes need to change about daily operations if it's going to survive.  

[AtomicSkier]

  On 4/29/2021 at 6:35 PM, Schif said:

I would love to be a fly on the wall of a Vail meeting where they talk about Big Boulder and Jack Frost. To me the issue is that you've got a resort group that doesn't fully understand the ins and outs of the super weird market that the Poconos is. At vail corporate I would be shocked if there are many people who naturally think that snow tubing is a big part of the ski business. Even if that was communicated to them when they bought the place it's hard to break preconceived notions. Eventually they will either figure it all out or they simply won't and the place will be seen as a loser to them. I doubt they will think too much about last year since it was a pandemic and everything was all sorts of messed up. Maybe they give boulder 5 years to see what happens but their attitudes need to change about daily operations if it's going to survive.  

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I want whatever you're smoking.  What is "super weird" about the Pocono market?  I think the bean counters at Vail know *exactly* what they're doing.  They're not just buying places because they're guessing at a business plan.  It's all calculated.  

[Schif]

  On 4/29/2021 at 7:12 PM, AtomicSkier said:

I want whatever you're smoking.  What is "super weird" about the Pocono market?  I think the bean counters at Vail know *exactly* what they're doing.  They're not just buying places because they're guessing at a business plan.  It's all calculated.  

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Bean counters yes, operations folks, maybe not is what I'm trying to say. Super weird in that the Poconos are quite different than Vail's other properties. For the rest of Vail's portfolio people are traveling a long way to get there, often flying, definitely staying and likely spending multiple days. Mountains are located closer to each other, are relatively similar and are pulling from day tripping major metro markets in the Poconos from people with a different mindset as to what a day of skiing entails.

I just get the feeling that there could definitely be some things lost in translation. 

[AtomicSkier]

  On 4/29/2021 at 7:30 PM, Schif said:

Bean counters yes, operations folks, maybe not is what I'm trying to say. Super weird in that the Poconos are quite different than Vail's other properties. For the rest of Vail's portfolio people are traveling a long way to get there, often flying, definitely staying and likely spending multiple days. Mountains are located closer to each other, are relatively similar and are pulling from day tripping major metro markets in the Poconos from people with a different mindset as to what a day of skiing entails.

I just get the feeling that there could definitely be some things lost in translation. 

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What about all of Vail's midwest properties?  Their other resorts in PA?  Vail has two different types of properties ... destinations and feeders.  They really don't care too much about the feeders other than those feeder pass holders vacation at Vail properties. 

[JFskiDan]

  On 4/29/2021 at 7:12 PM, AtomicSkier said:

I want whatever you're smoking.  What is "super weird" about the Pocono market?  I think the bean counters at Vail know *exactly* what they're doing.  They're not just buying places because they're guessing at a business plan.  It's all calculated.  

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What i find to be weird about the Pocono market is the snow tubing.  I asked this question a few months ago in the lot.  name resorts outside of PA that do tubing.  We couldnt come up with one.  I sure there probably is, but it wasnt rolling off the tip of anybodys tongue.  

And i disagree, i dont think Vail knows exactly what they are doing with JFBB.  I think they look at a map of their resorts from their office in CO, and ask, what the fuck are we doing running 2 resorts within a mile of one another, when all we really want is people to buy our pass?  

[Schif]

  On 4/29/2021 at 7:34 PM, AtomicSkier said:

What about all of Vail's midwest properties?  Their other resorts in PA?  Vail has two different types of properties ... destinations and feeders.  They really don't care too much about the feeders other than those feeder pass holders vacation at Vail properties. 

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I forgot they had midwest places. OK you've got me there. 

Using this logic though, do you think they will care to run boulder well, or just be happy that it breaks even? 

[AtomicSkier]

  On 4/29/2021 at 7:37 PM, Schif said:

I forgot they had midwest places. OK you've got me there. 

Using this logic though, do you think they will care to run boulder well, or just be happy that it breaks even? 

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Their business model would say why operate two when one will do?  At least that's my opinion.  If you have a house near BB now, you're most likely going to just move your skiing to JF, and still buy an Epic pass.  Seems like an easy decision to me.

[toast21602]

  On 4/29/2021 at 7:38 PM, AtomicSkier said:

At least that's my opinion. 

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A wise man once told me that opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

[EdBacon]

  On 4/29/2021 at 6:08 PM, trackbiker said:

I don't see BB closing. Lots of condos and houses around Lake Harmony. I don't get the tubing not being open. Tubing does really well when the masses think about skiing and then see the cost of lift tickets, rentals, and lessons. I can just hear a lot of dads going, "Hey kids, Lets go tubing instead!" when they see the cost of skiing at a Vail resort.

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Lots of condos and housing around lots of now lost ski areas too...

[RidgeRacer]

  On 4/29/2021 at 5:49 PM, JFskiDan said:

I will take that bet.  Anybody else?  
I dont disagree that night skiing is a money maker, or that Lake Harmony is a tourist destination.  But, i think you have to agree that they left a huge amount of money on the table not having tubing.  And what is considered a money maker to an independent operator, could be way different to what Vail feels is a money maker.  I dont think Vail really cares that the Pocono area relies on BB for the tourism industry.  

What shall we wager? You win.... we go on a ski trip next season. I win...we go on a ski trip next season. Deal?