Anyone have the latest on VOFS legal disputes?

[paul45]

Hey,

I searched these forums and haven't found anything in the last 5+ years.  Are these still on going VOFS/Elk Legal disputes?  Browsing properties and getting mixed info from realtors, info online, etc...?

• Gate is still closed?
• Homeowners can/cannot buy season passes?  Had a realtor tell me homeowners were holding property in LLCs to get around that!?  But Searched the susq. county parcel map and couldn't find any evidence that was true - nearly all were still held in individuals names.
• Still open lawsuits? Or the ones settled on appeal in 2014 or so is the end of it?  
  • Gate closure
  • Lake water usage
  • Sewer line
  • Any issues I missed?

Seemed like a great community... but that's a heck of a lot of nonsense to deal with.  (And a seemingly miserable buisness decision.. but seems to be based more on interpersonal conflicts than business)

Thanks! Appreciate any info from current VOFS owners.

[theprogram4]

@rummy ???

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

29 minutes ago, theprogram4 said:

@rummy ???

#Following 

[rgrwilco]

https://www.firsttracksonline.com/2013/05/15/pennsylvania-ski-resort-loses-lawsuit-over-water/

 

I don't think they can ban someone from buying a season pass because of where they live. No further info could be found.

[Old Geezer]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:16 AM, rgrwilco said:

https://www.firsttracksonline.com/2013/05/15/pennsylvania-ski-resort-loses-lawsuit-over-water/

 

I don't think they can ban someone from buying a season pass because of where they live. No further info could be found.

Interesting article, but it's ten years old.

[Old Geezer]

At the exit of the VOFS, across the road, in a field seemingly owned by or rented to Elk, you see this sign:

You can’t not see it, it’s in your face and that seems to be the point. Note that it’s addressed to owners, renters, guests and their visitors and their families. Effectively anyone owning, living or visiting VOFS. So yes there’s still serious ill-will being projected.  

I used to deal with and got to know a few well-connected people in the area (none are owners in VOFS), well connected with local banks and builders and such. They scratch their heads when explaining it’s now (after 10+ years of court/legal battles) a personal thing coming from the 80+ year old owner of Elk in an effort to drive down property values in VOFS.  They say in all other aspects of business and commerce the 80+ year old is savvy and astute – is/was on BOD of a local bank, etc. – it’s only this isolated thing that seems to be his pet peeve where he channels his ill will.

I also heard about the VOFS side from the legal types, the history is there were two or so VOFS owners than adamantly resisted any and all settlement with Elk. These peoples have since sold their properties and now the VOFS is left to deal with the results .

Locals say Elk will not sell season passes, locker rentals, etc. to any VOFS owners, renters, etc. It’s day tickets only if you want to ski. This is somehow strictly enforced behind the scenes, to the point of having background checks done on season pass applications. There’s a “you are guilty until proven innocent” vetting process in place.  Don’t know about kids racing programs, or employment as instructor or patroller positions. If you are thinking about any of these suggest you deep-dive investigate and get it all in writing before you buy, you want no surprises.

Disclaimer, all this is from three years ago.  I don’t think it has changed or else the people I know would have said so.  That picture of the sign was taken a few years ago but as of last autumn the sign was still there.

Edit to add:

Trivia, at one time VOFS had one ski trail and one chair lift, last I looked you could see both these from Google Earth images.

If I were you, i.e., someone getting serious about buying there, I’d do two things, 1-get a different RE Agent. You discovered what he/she told you about LLC owners doesn’t hold true. RE agents are supposed to know the local market, on this alone the agent you engaged does not, he/she should be telling you all this stuff instead of you getting it from a ski blog. 2- Pay for a few hours of a local attorney’s time and have him to talk on the record to the VOFS BOD and their attorney to clarify what I mentioned above, and (for extra credit) have him contact Elk or their attorney to ask for confirmation of the no season pass, no kids ski programs, no ski patrolling, no instructing, no gate access, no lockers, day tickets are the only thing they’ll sell to you. You want no surprises in a RE transaction like this.

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Wow elk is strict.  I heard they don’t even allow tree skiing. 

[paul45]

@Old Geezer Thank you for the thoughtful reply.  Really appreciate you taking the time to write it out 

Yes, we were there at a friend's families place and saw the sign.  Quite...eh... Ridiculous, petty, really few words to describe it 🙂

Didn't think about hiring a local lawyer to look into it.  My email to the HOA resulted in a simple "we can't provide any information on ongoing legal disputes". But perhaps a lawyer has better ways if ensuring they say what the current status is.  Other than locking the gate (obviously their prerogative) everything else seems blatantly discriminatory and illegal to offer something to sale to all but a subset of the public based on residency.  But you've got to imagine someone's already gone the legal route on that front.  

So the reason I think it might have changed... Our friends mentioned they didn't used to be allowed to buy parking passes but now they can.  They certainly had one this year.  No one in their family has tried to buy a season pass for many years though (nothing to do with the disputes or being "allowed" to... So no firm evidence there).

Perhaps real estate at those prices at the base of a mountain two hours from new York is too good to be true.  

Thanks again... Will try the lawyer route if we decide it's still worth proceeding.  But definitely still interested to hear from an owner that has either purchased or been denied any particular product in the last year or two. 

[paul45]

Wouldn't let me edit the previous post but....FYSA

 

If you look on the Susquehanna county property maps (https://susqco.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=3685466c65fb4a9bb628d7d24849ff4e) that sign is on landed opened by "Moore Motors, Inc" which Google indicates was a Philadelphia Volkswagen dealer in the 60s and I can only imagine is the legacy family business of Joseph Moore (80 year old Elk mountain owner).  

Someone in a post on this board from years ago speculated that part of the dispute involved him wanting to build condos and needing an access way though the village.  That property map at least supports that theory.  There's a plot behind the village that runs up along the east side of the mountain (certainly plausible for slopeside condos) also owned by Moore Motors. And the village property indeed would prevent the continuation of Elk mountain road to access that property. So... Doesn't confirm it but also doesn't deny it.  The head scratcher... Not really sure why high end real estate up the hill would be bad for the village anyway.  Rising tides and all.  Particularly as a negotiation point for the reopening of perhaps deeded walk on access.  But as you said.. The whole thing just makes no sense, no business sense for Elk, no sense for the VOFS owners... There just seem such obvious negotiations that could greatly benefit everyone.  

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Well the owner of Elk will likely die soon and maybe the company that owns Blue and Camelback will buy Elk and bring the place into the 21st century.  

Edited February 9, 2023 by GrilledSteezeSandwich

[paul45]

51 minutes ago, GrilledSteezeSandwich said:

Well the owner of Elk will likely die soon and maybe the company that owns Blue and Camelback will buy Elk and bring the place into the 21st century.  

We actually really enjoyed the mountain :-).  Thought they did a great job with snow making and grooming.  Admittedly, the lifts are not quite at modern standards.... Just slow enough to feel slow and just fast enough (without disconnecting) to leave your legs a little bruised, hahaha.  But otherwise we really liked the mountain (for a family with kids).

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

8 minutes ago, paul45 said:

We actually really enjoyed the mountain :-).  Thought they did a great job with snow making and grooming.  Admittedly, the lifts are not quite at modern standards.... Just slow enough to feel slow and just fast enough (without disconnecting) to leave your legs a little bruised, hahaha.  But otherwise we really liked the mountain (for a family with kids).

Nice and I was sort of playing the devils advocate with my comment.  The beef the Elk mountain owner has is problematic to me..he’s a wealthy 80 year old and has a lot of hate. Alienating past current and future customers is just not cool.  Think of all the money Elk spends on advertising..Their website, social media, billboards they might even do radio ads still and then you piss off a bunch of people who could be your best customers.  There is a right to refuse service in PA but a lot of grey areas..a store could refuse to sell to me or trespass me because I was disruptive or problematic but I don’t think they could say sorry I can’t sell you our products because you have a stain on your pants and also weird if cashier to look at my pants especially cause my fly is down like 15% of the time. 

[Old Geezer]

@paul45, An attorney will likely not get anymore from the HOA about "ongoing legal disputes" and that's standard practice. But that's not what you want him to do, you want him to find the history of past cases, settlements and agreements and the current status of things. He can lookup past cases and agreements, formal or informal, from both Elk and the HOA. 

My guess is being allowed to buy parking passes is probably related to ADA compliance and not a sign the working relationship has improved.

There's a law in Pennsylvania governing RE sales of Condominiums that says a seller must disclose any and all ongoing or expected legal proceedings the condo association is party to, with large liability for being inaccurate or incomplete. The seller gets this info from the HOA and puts it on the sales disclosure form. Sometimes/often/frequently RE agents insist sellers get legally binding documents from the HOA board or the management company attesting to this.  Every licensed RE Agent in PA knows this, if so much as a hint that they don't then get a better agent. To some this is considered too late in the process, i.e., you found a condo you like, you are close making an offer, and it's only then that you find out about legal proceedings when you see the disclosure form.  With the history there at VOFS this works in favor of the seller.

Note also "HOA" and "Condominium Association" are used interchangeably, however in PA there are two different governing laws. The rules and case law are not always the same. Get you RE agent to find out if VOFS is incorporated as a condominium or as an HOA.

Moore is the family name of the guy who owns (pretty sure he does not own 100%) Elk. He at one time owned a car dealership in Montgomery County (Conshohocken), PA, and it was named Moore Motors or something like that. You can still see the empty building, looks like it was last used 50 years ago, whenever I drive by it I think that's the guy who is Elk Mountain. So the legal entities Moore Motors and Elk are closely related, if not the same.

Good luck, and report back, we'll all like to know how it proceeds.

[theprogram4]

14 hours ago, Old Geezer said:

@paul45, An attorney will likely not get anymore from the HOA about "ongoing legal disputes" and that's standard practice. But that's not what you want him to do, you want him to find the history of past cases, settlements and agreements and the current status of things. He can lookup past cases and agreements, formal or informal, from both Elk and the HOA. 

My guess is being allowed to buy parking passes is probably related to ADA compliance and not a sign the working relationship has improved.

There's a law in Pennsylvania governing RE sales of Condominiums that says a seller must disclose any and all ongoing or expected legal proceedings the condo association is party to, with large liability for being inaccurate or incomplete. The seller gets this info from the HOA and puts it on the sales disclosure form. Sometimes/often/frequently RE agents insist sellers get legally binding documents from the HOA board or the management company attesting to this.  Every licensed RE Agent in PA knows this, if so much as a hint that they don't then get a better agent. To some this is considered too late in the process, i.e., you found a condo you like, you are close making an offer, and it's only then that you find out about legal proceedings when you see the disclosure form.  With the history there at VOFS this works in favor of the seller.

Note also "HOA" and "Condominium Association" are used interchangeably, however in PA there are two different governing laws. The rules and case law are not always the same. Get you RE agent to find out if VOFS is incorporated as a condominium or as an HOA.

Moore is the family name of the guy who owns (pretty sure he does not own 100%) Elk. He at one time owned a car dealership in Montgomery County (Conshohocken), PA, and it was named Moore Motors or something like that. You can still see the empty building, looks like it was last used 50 years ago, whenever I drive by it I think that's the guy who is Elk Mountain. So the legal entities Moore Motors and Elk are closely related, if not the same.

Good luck, and report back, we'll all like to know how it proceeds.

 police like to hide at the old Moore motors building where the speed limit drops suddenly to 25 mph.  It was supposed to be turned into a wawa

[rgrwilco]

Sounds like a clusterfuck. Hopefully when ownership changes this can be put behind them. It seems that having a place like the VOFS at the base should be a benefit. You would have to imagine that most people at VOFS bought in due to elk being there, and elk is leaving a ton of pass sales on the table. Looking at the maps it looks like there could even be a trail cut down to the village with a lift. 

Elk management just looks like idiots.

Edited February 10, 2023 by rgrwilco

[rummy]

My understanding is most of the restrictions remain for the owners of property in VOFS. 

I spoke with a VOFS owner while on a lift a couple of weeks ago and he told me they now can pay a large amount (I heard 10K and 15K, from others, he was not specific) for a 20 year exception to the no SP rule. This is for the owner and his family. If he paid double it would be a lifetime exception.

Definitely get your details in writing before purchase.

[paul45]

@rummy thank you.  I unfortunately confirmed this elsewhere. There was apparently a deeded version that goes with the property.  Don't know any real numbers yet. So...I know what to ask.  On one hand, seems completely bonkers to get involved in at all.  On the other... There ain't real estate at that price that close to any other mountain that's within 2 hours of the city... Not even close... Argh... Whole thing is absurd.

 

[Johnny Law]

Everything everyone likes about elk has nothing to do with how they run the place. I'll say it a 1000 times but you take what they do there and move it to blue or cb and peeps would be furious. They have their shit maybe 1/4 as together compared to the others. 

They get by because they are in the middle of nowhere, if you drive to North Dakota and ski Huff Hills the snow is pretty great too.