Mountian Race teams and gates

[Nipples]

I'm not going to even start throwing flames this is only my opion. But the CAT is so boring. Thats my opion. There probley alot of racer that think freestyle is boring it's just an opion.

[sibhusky]

I'm not going to even start throwing flames this is only my opion. But the CAT is so boring. Thats my opion. There probley alot of racer that think freestyle is boring it's just an opion.

I guess as a parent who has to pay for coaching, I don't care if you are having fun when you are being coached. You are there to LEARN HOW TO RACE, not to play. If you don't care about learning how to do it right, then wait until you are mature enough to understand why you are there and save your dad some bucks. If you can prove to all of us when you start racing that you can finish "on the first page" then maybe you can talk about being bored. Until then from where I sit you have no justification for being too cool to listen to your coaches.

[AtomicSkier]

I guess as a parent who has to pay for coaching, I don't care if you are having fun when you are being coached. You are there to LEARN HOW TO RACE, not to play. If you don't care about learning how to do it right, then wait until you are mature enough to understand why you are there and save your dad some bucks. If you can prove to all of us when you start racing that you can finish "on the first page" then maybe you can talk about being bored. Until then from where I sit you have no justification for being too cool to listen to your coaches.

 

You hit the nail on the head

[Papasteeze]

WOW.. all of this started because I don't understand why there have not been any gates set up yet. The only answer I hear is because that is what the coaches want. Shut up and listen to the coaches. I am sorry if everyone here who has responded does not respect my lack of understanding or buy in at this point. I have been mum on the USSA/PARA/CAT program at CB up till now.

 

We have been going to CAT training for 2 months. How long is the race season? Ridge's first race that he can enter is at JFBB on 1/7, his last if he qualifies for the Derbies is at 2/25 - 6 weeks long. Thats it..

 

After the derbies in February, there are no other races for Ridge. Does CAT practice even continue after the Derbies? You know as a parent, I don't know.... I guess in retrospect, had I known what I know so far, I would have mapped a different course for Ridge to race in since I thought the CAT, USSA, PARA was about getting into going down a hill, around some gates, as fast as you can. That has yet to happen after 13 days on the snow.

 

Stay big picture for second and look at it this way. More than half way thru the training/racing/CAT Team season and no gates have been run. That is all I am saying. Positive or negative attitude, you decide, he loves to go fast and I simply trying to provide the ways and means for him to do that.

 

I guess as a parent who has to pay for coaching, I don't care if you are having fun when you are being coached. You are there to LEARN HOW TO RACE, not to play. If you don't care about learning how to do it right, then wait until you are mature enough to understand why you are there and save your dad some bucks. If you can prove to all of us when you start racing that you can finish "on the first page" then maybe you can talk about being bored. Until then from where I sit you have no justification for being too cool to listen to your coaches.

 

I pay for the coaching with the intent that Ridge is going to be racing, I feel that the information of what they are coming back with, is developmental and ski schoolish. I expected more, oh well. BTW Nipples is on the CAT team for different reasons than Ridge. He too, is fast but has no desire to race, Ridge also loves jumping in the park and is now on his brothers twins after ski school errrrr team practice for the enjoyment of being on the snow, but no desire to do freestyle, however there are indications that that may change.

Edited December 26, 2005 by Papasteeze

[Ski]

It's more like "shut up and respect the coaches", actually.

 

Sort of makes me think back on Siblett and my oldest's first race season together. It was the year that December was the coldest on record in the Poconos and we kept catching them taking hot chocolate breaks in the team room---and they were laughing a little too much.

 

But Sib and I were not laughing. We kept sending them back out into the -10 cold and let them know they had made a commitment they were going to follow through with.

 

And when they fought with each other or teammates, we demanded they respect one another...even on days that they hated each other.

 

And on race day, the loser was taught to act like a winner and the winner was to act like there was still more to learn.

 

I think it's sad that you don't understand there's so much more at stake. So many valuable lessons.

[Metz the Jersey boy]

Dammit, where the hell did the fun go? In all of this everyone is forgetting why we get on snow 35 days a year- because its a hell of a lot of fun. There's always more to learn, and there's always a better time to be reached. There are different schools of coaching, and frankly, I'm dying to learn what Ridge is learning right now. I'd LOVE to be able to get into a program where I'm getting race coaching every day. I may be 23 years old, but I've still got a dream. I know where I want to be in ten years, and if someone says I can't do it, screw them. i don't run 3 miles 5 times a week because its fun... I do it because there are people out there that are in better shape than me, that can ski faster than me. I don't like that. I don't like it one bit. This sport is all about attitude. No matter what coaching is going on, no matter whether there are gates on the hill or not, its about desire and love. You can learn so much about life from skiing- get forward, charge it head on, and be happy. I'd sell a kidney to have started racing at age 10, no matter what coaching was going on. Whatever they're doing on the hill, it works. Trust me. All the talent in the world won't get anyone anywhere. If there's anything that these coaches should be teaching these kids its how to want it more. too bad there's really no way to coach it.

 

And another thing- I couldn't stand the way my football coach coached in high school. Didn't stop me from becoming all central jersey. Its not what is in the coaches head that matters, its whats in the athlete's heart.

[sibhusky]

I think it's sad that you don't understand there's so much more at stake. So many valuable lessons.

Actually, it's interesting that you bring this up. Mr. Husky has commented that he has so much respect for Siblet even though he rarely goes to races. He thinks that racing (and gymnastics) has made her so much tougher for her age than he ever was (or I for that matter). One of the race parents here (whose family goes back generations in ski racing, back to 10th Mountain Division, etc.) says that we should never underestimate the kid who stands at the top of a FIS course in the howling winds and looks down at the run ahead of them, full of ruts, or scraped down to boilerplate, and on the count, bursts out of that gate. He says, win or lose, that there is no substitute for it (of course he's a skier). This is not a team sport by any means. The kid that goes down that hill cannot toss the ball to someone else, it's all in their hands. Now, think again to that kid, in the gate. What have they got on? Shoulder pads, boxing mitts? Not hardly. They are there in a speed suit. They might have shinguards, their suits may have padding, but it's minimal. Do you know that Siblet took a slalom gate on the nose the first race we had here and finished, bleeding the rest of the way down the course? She was what I call a "pink girl" for years prior to taking up racing.

 

Anyway, back to the gates bit. I know, everyone wants to do the gates. Lots of people complain about the lack of gates, but once the season gets going they will do gates again and again. And again. And again. Let the coaches work on his skiing. If at the end of the season, you think they've failed you, then by all means go to Blue, or Elk, or wherever. But I am pretty sure that by second guessing the coaching you won't give your kid confidence in the coach. And the racer has to trust the coach to make the right decisions for him. These kids are J4's. Now is the time to work on the fundamentals. CB doesn't have the best program in the country, we all know that. But, at least for the first season, I would frankly expect you to see INCREDIBLE improvement in his skiing, no matter what he's done in NASTAR. If he doesn't, then certainly sell your house at Northridge, buy one at Elk or wherever, and put him in that program. But since you freely admit you don't know a thing about racing, then you don't do anyone any good by second guessing the coach.

 

I bet skidude, who was a NASTAR nut before he joined the CAT team, thought he was going to come in and wow them all. Guess what, he had a lot to learn, and if you check back over his race finishes over time, he really racheted up his performance once he was on the team.

 

There will come a time, if Ridge is good, that it will be time to move on. But for where he is at right now, he is fine.

[Papasteeze]

It's more like "shut up and respect the coaches", actually.

 

I think it's sad that you don't understand there's so much more at stake. So many valuable lessons.

 

You make harsh inflammatory comments and then don't back any of them up with any substance. Oh my god, ski999 has spoken, bow at the feet of the righteous.. hahaa

 

 

Dammit, where the hell did the fun go? In all of this everyone is forgetting why we get on snow 35 days a year- because its a hell of a lot of fun.

 

Exactly, what I am saying. When the fun/interest is gone, it is gone. The kid wants gates, there is absolutely no harm in getting some gates out early when our season is so short that has been explained to me in rational terms. They go through numerous daily drills, even contradictory ones. They just dont do any "race course" drills as of yet.

 

 

This is not a team sport by any means. The kid that goes down that hill cannot toss the ball to someone else, it's all in their hands. Now, think again to that kid, in the gate.

I am trying to but we haven't seen any this season.

 

Anyway, back to the gates bit. I know, everyone wants to do the gates. Lots of people complain about the lack of gates, but once the season gets going they will do gates again and again. And again. And again.

Here again, I can't thnk of any sport that doesn't do some practice on the "field" once the season starts. I have a feeeling that it may be that setting up gates is too much work for the volunteer staff to be bothered with.

 

If at the end of the season, you think they've failed you, then by all means go to Blue, or Elk, or wherever. But I am pretty sure that by second guessing the coaching you won't give your kid confidence in the coach.

you talk singular. I think his regular coach is now done with soccer and hopefully he is there today. I like Keith, I hired him last year for 3 privates with Ridge for starting house drills. Nobody likes to questioned, that is human nature.

 

I would frankly expect you to see INCREDIBLE improvement in his skiing, no matter what he's done in NASTAR.

I can't see what hasn't been done, nor can the racer. When does that improvement show? The ski training day is long, No one yet has come up with a valid argument of why drills are not applied to a course. Ridge wants to do some NASTAR races to compare against last year. I don't blame him and there is certainly no harm in it. NASTAR gave him the determination to try and do better each run. Somehow, I wish Icould meld the 2 programs together for him.

 

But since you freely admit you don't know a thing about racing, then you don't do anyone any good by second guessing the coach.

My second guessing is here, online, so far. The only thing it might hurt is general interest for parents contemplating joining a team.

 

I bet skidude, who was a NASTAR nut before he joined the CAT team, thought he was going to come in and wow them all. Guess what, he had a lot to learn, and if you check back over his race finishes over time, he really racheted up his performance once he was on the team.

uh - he told me something a little different yesterday.

 

There will come a time, if Ridge is good, that it will be time to move on.

Agreed, he is a tough read. I think overall he is really enjoying hanging out with friends that share a same interest. At the same time - He/I just want to know why no gates have been set up.. It has been explained that when they are ready??? Because the coaches determine when is not a good answer, there should be reasoning behind a training program. Jeez, I thought this was a race team, not a development team.

[adrian]

easy, easy, gentlemen!

[Papasteeze]

And consider this: J4/5 GS courses are VERY basic and very NASTAR-like. There are no tricks or real rythm changes. Your kids have nothing to be concerned about.

 

THEN WHY were you bad-mouthing the Nastar courses last season as being flat, easy... when I was posting Ridges progress through the season in that program. You said that the real guage of how good a racer he is, is to enter the USSA program.. Now you are down playing the signifcance of the J4's

[VTmark]

someone just lock this thread and stop the bickering at least for a couple of days.

[Ski Freek!!]

seriacly guyes. easyy there jethrow

[Ski]

THEN WHY were you bad-mouthing the Nastar courses last season as being flat, easy... when I was posting Ridges progress through the season in that program. You said that the real guage of how good a racer he is, is to enter the USSA program.. Now you are down playing the signifcance of the J4's

 

Bad mouthing by saying a course is flat and easy? It's a fact, not a bad mouth. Jeez, why don't you just open your eyes and look for yourself. IT ISN'T A MYSTERY WHERE EACH TYPE OF RACE IS HELD. Raceway at CB is the type of slope a J4/5 course will be on, which is also CB's NASTAR, yet they hold J3 and Cup races on Cliffy. Montage holds J4/5's on an easy blue square called Switch while the J1/2's have gate sets on the North Face diamonds as much as possible.

 

The Bear Creek NASTAR could never qualify for holding a J1/2 or even J3 race.

 

Even in NASTAR, there's no way Ridge raced on the course that the 17 yr old kids raced on at Nationals. NASTAR always sets little kid courses. I'll bet you a lift ticket that's where he was at Park City.

 

But you'll find me very consistant in my opinion of NASTAR and USSA.

 

NASTAR is a fun, gym-class level program intended for recreational skiers. There is no sanctioned coaching in NASTAR, just one guy in Utah trying to make enough money to quit his day job by charging twice the normal price for gimmick-ridden clinics.

 

USSA is more like a YMCA swim club program. Some are good, while some are great. But all follow the same basic drills and coaching techniques. These types of clubs are where Olympic swimmers come from, not gym class swimmers.

 

NASTAR is a bunch of gates drilled into the hill by a nice guy, meant for anyone with $5. What's not to love about that?

 

USSA is about hardcore training to be the best in the world.

 

It's absurd to compare the two.

 

 

 

"Exactly, what I am saying. When the fun/interest is gone, it is gone."

 

Didn't you wrestle in high school, Rob? Did you quit when it wasn't all fun and games?

[Ski]

"I can't see what hasn't been done, nor can the racer. When does that improvement show? The ski training day is long, No one yet has come up with a valid argument of why drills are not applied to a course. Ridge wants to do some NASTAR races to compare against last year."

 

A coach doesn't need to see a kid in gates to see if they are improving. Gates have nothing to do with carving properly and body position; gates just happen to be the turning points. I could stand at the bottom of a gateless hill and tell any J3/4/5 what he needs to work on...any level 1 coach could.

 

And just how does anyone compair what they did from year to year in NASTAR? It's impossible. Look at Gary: he's gone from a certified 6 HC to a certified 10 HC. NASTAR does the best they can, but it's not possible to have any sort of accurate handicapping system.

 

And it's a waste of time going into character building examples with you, Rob. But Sib certainly did.

 

someone just lock this thread and stop the bickering at least for a couple of days.

 

Believe it or not, we actually really care a lot about what's about to happen. A blind guy is about to wander into traffic with his kid and we're trying to pull him back.

 

What would you do if a friend at school was about to toss a rock at the back of the head of a tough teacher? Oh, well, bad example. (EDIT: ooops, I didn't mean it would just be you, VT, letting him toss it...)

Edited December 26, 2005 by ski999

[VTmark]

What would you do if a friend at school was about to toss a rock at the back of the head of a tough teacher? Oh, well, bad example. (EDIT: ooops, I didn't mean it would just be you, VT, letting him toss it...)

i would knock him out end of story. i see your point '999 and agree with all your posts. but reading you and rob fight a decent amount of time is getting rather old. I recently changed my oppion of you and what i said about you on another board i wish i could take back. I think both of you can be cool people at times. But the constient bickering is taxing on the board. im sorry if that offends eaither of you but thats the way i see it.

[skigurl]

well everyone should be happy to hear we put brushes in. we drilled the AM and ran brushes in the PM. In the morning once again most kids were working on position, we did drills and drills of this, and by lunch some had made an improvment. now in the PM we did the brushes but a lot of kids were still being told to get forward. you have to build the muscle memory out side of a course and then take it to the course and then you will really see improvments

[AtomicSkier]

well everyone should be happy to hear we put brushes in. we drilled the AM and ran brushes in the PM. In the morning once again most kids were working on position, we did drills and drills of this, and by lunch some had made an improvment. now in the PM we did the brushes but a lot of kids were still being told to get forward. you have to build the muscle memory out side of a course and then take it to the course and then you will really see improvments

 

Exactly. First you learn to ski forward, then you run the gates forward. Being in the backseat really comes out on the race course.

[skimom]

In Pops defense, I watched the CB CATS training this morning and thought they were standing around a lot. I'd have been bored too. The snow was great - who wants to stand around politely listening... Let's hope they dial it up soon.

 

I think CB does a good job, and Skidude's handicaps improved dramatically since he joined the team. He just finished his first USSA races of the season, and did OK, but didn't help his points. He thought it was because he hadn't had any practice in the gates. It likely related to a lack of intense fitness/dryland training too. The kids who the race helped went away to ski camps to train and/or they were super fit. Pops, you aren't married to CB. Send your kids outside the program to supplement their training if your goals are ambitious. Meanwhile, Gus et al are fine coaches, and the Poplets will benefit from the program - it will give them opportunity to make friends with other fast kids their ages, and the skills will help them in the gates.

Edited December 26, 2005 by skimom

[Metz the Jersey boy]

Skimom raises what I consider to be an extremely valuable point. I'm going to bend it a little here, but it is how i feel about the entire situation. If CAT is anything like some of the other teams I've been on in the many other sports I've played, the kids don't do the proper dryland training. They're not in the kind of shape they should be when they show up on the first day. I have a strong feeling that most of the drills and exercises that are being done so early are to get the kids in the shape they should be in. What this all boils down to is that people need to stop blaming coaches. If someone isn't improving then they need to train and practice harder. Its in each individual's hands.

[Ski]

i would knock him out end of story. i see your point '999 and agree with all your posts. but reading you and rob fight a decent amount of time is getting rather old. I recently changed my oppion of you and what i said about you on another board i wish i could take back. I think both of you can be cool people at times. But the constient bickering is taxing on the board. im sorry if that offends eaither of you but thats the way i see it.

 

VTmark, I don't hold any grudges or anything with what people post on this or any other MB...I have a pretty thick skin and really only get pissy when people bash PA skiing on a PA MB. My huge problem with the MSRT guy was mostly because he errased our kids NASTAR records while keeping much more "Golden Day" records on his home course. In fact, just this XMas a couple of people were even faster than Darron Rahlves would have been on his course, yet they don't recalculate their races...just our's. But Dranow doesn't like me, so he killed my kid's results and banned me from his message board and threatened my family with violence. Oh, well...

 

But I don't understand why you continue to read a thread that bothers you? Among the rude posts, we have exchanged real information. We don't get along at all, but I think we both recognize with dissenting voices come evolving ideas.

 

 

 

All the running is bad for skiing because it's so high impact on your knees and joints. I would power walk, hike, or do the eliptical machine in the gym. Alot of older relatives of mine have knee and back problems from being die-hard runners. I personally don't run except from ugly girls...

 

The head coach of the CATs is a former high school cross country coach. He's pretty anti-running, at least for distances, when it comes to skiers. Partly because of impact, but mostly because of the way it actually breaks down muscles. My oldest is a cross country runner---now at college---and she's built more like a fashion model than what you'd consider an athlete. The best kind of running to do for skiing is in dry river beds, or trails like that. Running from rock to rock, with hills and undulating terrain.

 

Two of the top male CATs over the last couple of years have something in common: both played linebacker on their high school football teams.

[VTmark]

VTmark, I don't hold any grudges or anything with what people post on this or any other MB...I have a pretty thick skin and really only get pissy when people bash PA skiing on a PA MB. My huge problem with the MSRT guy was mostly because he errased our kids NASTAR records while keeping much more "Golden Day" records on his home course. In fact, just this XMas a couple of people were even faster than Darron Rahlves would have been on his course, yet they don't recalculate their races...just our's. But Dranow doesn't like me, so he killed my kid's results and banned me from his message board and threatened my family with violence. Oh, well...

 

But I don't understand why you continue to read a thread that bothers you? Among the rude posts, we have exchanged real information. We don't get along at all, but I think we both recognize with dissenting voices come evolving ideas.

its because you are excanging real information

[AtomicSkier]

VTMark, there is no need for any complaining about ski999/papasteeze in this thread, it's remaining rather civilized while good information is being exchanged.

 

Someone has said it before, but...

 

Gates magnifiy mistakes. You've got to correct the mistakes before you start getting into gates.

[sibhusky]

Skimom raises what I consider to be an extremely valuable point. I'm going to bend it a little here, but it is how i feel about the entire situation. If CAT is anything like some of the other teams I've been on in the many other sports I've played, the kids don't do the proper dryland training. They're not in the kind of shape they should be when they show up on the first day. I have a strong feeling that most of the drills and exercises that are being done so early are to get the kids in the shape they should be in. What this all boils down to is that people need to stop blaming coaches. If someone isn't improving then they need to train and practice harder. Its in each individual's hands.

 

This lack of fall dryland training was a big issue when Siblet was on the team. They would hand out a list of exercises, but since everyone lives so far apart it was pretty much impossible to hold regular after school training sessions until the start of the season. The coaches had to rely on the kids to do it themselves. And we all know what happens then -- some kids come in ready to race, but others (probably the majority) think they are in fine shape without doing a thing. Then the coaches try to put the kids in groups, probably mainly by age class, and it's the slackers who are holding everyone back. I am sure there is some effort to fine tune the groups a bit, but there are only so many coaches.

 

It's easier to run a program when the kids are all "locals". You get them after school everyday, take them to the local fitness center, or soccor field, etc. and put them through their paces. When the snow arrives, you put them through some early drills and as soon as Christmas vacation hits, they can take full advantage of Christmas camp. In CB's situation, they don't get all the kids together really until Christmas, so the start up is MUCH slower.

[Metz the Jersey boy]

 

Two of the top male CATs over the last couple of years have something in common: both played linebacker on their high school football teams.

 

Linebackers and running backs make great skiers because of their strength, explosiveness, and lateral movement ability. Many of the same exercises apply to both sports (plyometrics, wall sits, 10-40 yard sprints). Personally, I feel that any exercise that increases muscle stamina will help skiers immensely. Everything is about being able to get into and maintain a powerful position throughout the run

[Papasteeze]

Well - we got our gate and starting house fixes. Everything is good and on track. I should start a new thread, because I just finished reading Go fast, Be good, Have fun. what revelation..