Ski Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 Well - we got our gate and starting house fixes. Everything is good and on track. I should start a new thread, because I just finished reading Go fast, Be good, Have fun. what revelation.. Just be sure to take everything Bode says in it with a huge grain of salt. Bode needs a good PR guy to calm him down. Did you read what he did after the last slalom? He refused an equipment check and skied away from the FIS tech guy. The US coaches publicly refused to talk to the FIS on his behalf; they are fed up with him. Bode's going to end up like Terrell Owens, with most people just thinking he's a talented clown.
Papasteeze Posted December 31, 2005 Author Report Posted December 31, 2005 (edited) Skimom raises what I consider to be an extremely valuable point. I'm going to bend it a little here, but it is how i feel about the entire situation. If CAT is anything like some of the other teams I've been on in the many other sports I've played, the kids don't do the proper dryland training. They're not in the kind of shape they should be when they show up on the first day. I have a strong feeling that most of the drills and exercises that are being done so early are to get the kids in the shape they should be in. What this all boils down to is that people need to stop blaming coaches. If someone isn't improving then they need to train and practice harder. Its in each individual's hands. BTW - I asked today for the coaches to teach some basic stretching excercises. I was told that it was nothing unusual " just do the basics" this was by one of those ultra certified whatevers.. WTF - my kids run hard an hour before CAT team and up until 10pm - they are walking funny and stiff as a board. There are basics that are being over looked.. Forget all the drills. Go fast, be good, have fun! It is not in each individuals hands when you are 10 years old. I am concerned that my kids are locking up, the growth in their legs at theietender age is very noticible, they need to be taught to stretch.. Call me a little league dad or what ever. By the way.. Doesn't our number one skier still ski in the back seat? Edited December 31, 2005 by Papasteeze
Metz the Jersey boy Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 Now, any coaches that post in here would probably have a better idea of what to use as a program than I do, but there is definitely training that younger kids should be doing dryland to prepare. They should at least be running. Plyometrics (box drills) are also awesome. They do wonders for agility and explosion. Weightlifting, no, conditioning, hell yes.
Ski Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 BTW - I asked today for the coaches to teach some basic stretching excercises. I was told that it was nothing unusual " just do the basics" this was by one of those ultra certified whatevers.. WTF - my kids run hard an hour before CAT team and up until 10pm - they are walking funny and stiff as a board. There are basics that are being over looked.. Forget all the drills. Go fast, be good, have fun! It is not in each individuals hands when you are 10 years old. I am concerned that my kids are locking up, the growth in their legs at theietender age is very noticible, they need to be taught to stretch.. Call me a little league dad or what ever. By the way.. Doesn't our number one skier still ski in the back seat? I'm not sure you need a coach to teach basic stretching, Rob...I'm sure they'd all be glad to tell you how to warm up just prior to a race run, where there's limited space and kids have a tendency to tighten up from the cold...leg swings and forward lunges...that sort of thing. But for skiing, we always take a very low speed warm-up run, click out of bindings and do leg stretches, hamstrings, etc. Personally, I'd have made 'Dude and his teammates run 15 miles+ every week of the summer, as well as a bitchload of stairs. And they'd be benching their weight plus 30%...er, 40%. Strength is the most overlooked aspect of ski racing by far. I don't disagree that the kids should stretch. I had my 4 and 5 yr old soccer players doing jumping jacks before practice. Bode in the back seat? Actually, he's an amazingly balanced skier that is very forward when he's doing things right. He's tall for a skier, maybe 6'2", or so, as opposed to former greats like Tomba and Giardelli. His long limbs are often flailing about for balance, but he still keeps his mass going down the fall line. But Bode's only in the back seat when he's bouncing off his ass after a mistake or riding out of a rut, like at the Beaver Creek GS he won. Bode is an amazing athlete that probably isn't worth a damn as an example of what to do, unless he's teaching someone from birth. His abilities are Michael Jordan-like, they are not something that can just be written down, passed out, and duplicated. Bode is simply one in a billion, but I'd rather my daughter skied more like Michael Von Grunigen any day.
sibhusky Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 Papasteeze, you must get SKI magazine or something because of getting season passes and doing NASTAR. We get like three copies a month here. There's been plenty of exercises in those over the years. There are also books that specifically discuss ski-related exercises. Siblet was a gymnast at one time in addition to being a skier, so stretching is something she does without prompting. In fact, many of the ski team members are involved in other sports out of ski season. Those sports usually call for various warm up and cool down exercises as well. Not to excuse the coach for not giving you a start on what to do, but maybe the point was that these other activities would work just as well for skiing prep and cool down. Didn't Gus give out handouts in the fall? He used to.
sibhusky Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 In trying to see how skidude did at the Alumni races, I came across this link for the Skyland kids to warm up with: http://www.skylandsski.org/images/Warm-Up%20Excercise.pdf
Metz the Jersey boy Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 Coach C, Just wondering what benefits can be gained from benching that much as a skier... I'm not criticizing this advice at all, i'm just wondering. In my training I've never been too focused on my upper body. I do a lot of back exercises and the necessary light benching to maintain opposing muscle groups. I've focused on a squats a lot. I'm at the point where I can squat my body weight plus another 175%. I just would like to know what your take on the perfect work out routine for skiing would be.
Ski Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 Coach C, Just wondering what benefits can be gained from benching that much as a skier... I'm not criticizing this advice at all, i'm just wondering. In my training I've never been too focused on my upper body. I do a lot of back exercises and the necessary light benching to maintain opposing muscle groups. I've focused on a squats a lot. I'm at the point where I can squat my body weight plus another 175%. I just would like to know what your take on the perfect work out routine for skiing would be. Just to be clear, Metz, my "qualifications" are only as a soccer coach and baseball hitting instructor. I taught skiing at Mount Snow to non-racers and just help each season with a small race series at my small home ski hill. But skiing specific exercises are core related. I highly recommend going very heavy with sit-ups, even weighted and inclined sit-ups. Having really strong abs allows you to keep a steady and focused upper body, while the lower half does all the work. Honestly, though, suggesting kids go heavily into weights is using hyperbole to address the fact that typical ski racing kids are below average in fitness and really need to learn how to use the weight room. You sure can't tell skinny kids to be careful not to become muscle bound, if you get my meaning. For someone with a history of using weights and good fitness, I'd suggest light weights with lots of reps. Then at least one day a week with heavy weights. As you know, muscle mass comes from the heavy weights, while definition comes from lots of light reps. Bench, lat pulls, everything. Leg presses, hams, and lunges. Always stretching a lot. And I really would suggest working hard on abs, as well as not shying away from getting some mileage in. Winter running can be tough, depending on where you live, but short runs on cross country courses are great. Finding a dry river bed is the ultimate. As Sib said, Ski Mag has always had great fitness advice. It's spread out of a bunch of issues, but maybe they have it online.
ole2planker Posted December 31, 2005 Report Posted December 31, 2005 Ski and Skiing's exercise articles are usually oriented towards physical development and skill development. I don't recall a stretching article, although I would be very interested in reading one. Ski Magazine's instruction archives are here http://www.skimag.com/skimag/search/1,1339...ive=instruction. There are a lot of fluff pieces there, but a search should pull up something. Skiing's instruction page is here http://www.skiingmag.com/skiing/fitness/0,21057,,00.html
skidude Posted January 3, 2006 Report Posted January 3, 2006 It looks as though Nastar has gates set up before the bonafide USSA-PARA race teams do. I am sick about hearing how complex and difficult USSA gates are, no wonder they don't use them to practice on, they just throw some out and say - let see you go race around those..None of the teams have had any practice using real gates and I know that Ridges first race in on the 7th - THAT IS LAME! - RANT... Futhermore - I have to be some kinda of elitest certified in this and that to drill holes in the snow to offer to help. CRAPOLA! **NOTE: I have just read this post, and no other posts in this thread, so don't hate on me if I stay stuff that was already touched on** Running gates is not the way to build up form. I have talked to you about this before, but I'll say it again. If you want Ridge to start off doing really well, have him run all the gates you can find. But if you want him to be able to do really well in a few years, when (dare I say it?) it counts more, then he has to learn good form. I know Ridge wants to run gates....heck I think thats about all any racer wants to do most of the time, but it really won't help your skiing until you have everything down real well before your in the gates. As far as being certified to set gates...I have skied course set by coaches who have been around for a long time, but have never set (had 15 years of experiance looking at couses, slipping them, replacing gates on them, coaching kids on them) and they can't set a course for sh*t. Now I say set a course and I mean set a half desent course. It probably wouldn't be hard to set a course like the mt. dew or a nastar course, but I dare you, yes you, to set a technical SL course and try to watch Ridge ski it.
sibhusky Posted January 3, 2006 Report Posted January 3, 2006 Yeah, I remember Siblet had issues with the way one of the coaches used to set gates. Said his courses lacked the right kind of rhythm or something.
Papasteeze Posted January 3, 2006 Author Report Posted January 3, 2006 I am all for training and such. My thinking is that CB race team is not a vermont academy. There is very little if no information given to me on what to expect or what to prepare our kids for in training. When I ask questions, I get terse one liners. I just feel strongly that the aspect of keeping it fun is so important to keeping interest. If running some gates is what the kids want, then they should do some of that just to keep them pumped up and happy. Not discouraged and unsure when they finally do hit a real race. This regimine of train train train does nothing to help a kid feel comfortable in a start house staring at something they are unfamiliar with. I am simply saying that I would think that a portion of each day would be taking those drills and actually applying them to a course. Keep in mind that I listen, I watch and observe, then comment. BTW - since this was written, they did and have run some gates each day over the xmas break.
Ski Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 My thinking is that CB race team is not a vermont academy. Well, that's right. PARA is primarily for kids that ski weekends. There's also coaching available during the week, but very few kids come up. It's kind of hard to bitch about the lack of coaching and information if you limit yourself to only being there two days a week. A former CAT that is now at Waterville Valley Academy was at CB seven days a week and basically had Jack M. as a personal coach. Uh, so guess why she was accepted to WVA? You get what you put in. Rob, if you are a professional problem solver, why not diagnose the real problem? BTW, Skierforever is a dick.
DHarrisburg Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 But Dranow doesn't like me, so he killed my kid's results and banned me from his message board and threatened my family with violence. Oh, well... What's that saying? "What goes around comes around?"
Ski Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 What's that saying? "What goes around comes around?" You're just p*ssed that someone stood up to you. I hate bullies; someone picks on my friends and I'll get in their face. That's why we'll never get along.
tretiak Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 You're just p*ssed that someone stood up to you. I hate bullies; someone picks on my friends and I'll get in their face. That's why we'll never get along.
Papasteeze Posted January 4, 2006 Author Report Posted January 4, 2006 Rob, if you are a professional problem solver, why not diagnose the real problem? BTW, Skierforever is a dick. I think I have the diagnosis.. the first solution, which is not an option, would be to live closer to mountain with a longer season. Then, everything else would fall in place or so I believe. You bring up some good points, if Ridge had been on the CAT team from several years ago, there is no way he would be where he is today with his skill level. I need to keep that in mind as time progresses.. Is skiforever a guy or gal?
skidude Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 I think I have the diagnosis.. the first solution, which is not an option, would be to live closer to mountain with a longer season. Then, everything else would fall in place or so I believe. You bring up some good points, if Ridge had been on the CAT team from several years ago, there is no way he would be where he is today with his skill level. I need to keep that in mind as time progresses.. Is skiforever a guy or gal? Are you saying that if ridge was on a ski team he would be better or worse than he is now?
Papasteeze Posted January 4, 2006 Author Report Posted January 4, 2006 (edited) Are you saying that if ridge was on a ski team he would be better or worse than he is now? I think seriously that if Ridge was in a ski team program from the whenever he could have been, that he would not have the interest that he has in racing now, nor would he be as fast. Knowing him the way I do, I think he would have gotten bored to death with a ski team program. You have to remember, that a lot of thrill of skiing for us has been going to different places and just freeskiing - first on, last off. It's just conjecture and the point can be argued all day long by you USSA drill sargents about whether his racing progression would be better or worse. Ridge never mentioned racing until his brother was encouraged to enter some freestyle competitions. Ridge entered those same comps with steven and didn't fair so well since he didn't want to do rails and only liked to straight line jumps. It was then he said he wanted to race. I can't stress enough, the stuff I learned last year while trying to find gates for him to race around. You may remember that we spent the 3rd week in January at 6 different world class resorts in Tahoe and not one single place had any gates set up. He never really raced anything until the end of last January. I joined Nastar 1/30/05 and PASR 2/15/05 forums for the simple aspect of getting more involved with competitive skiing. So with those facts in place.. and given that he is near the top in his age group in his area, I can only assume that if there was different path then he would be less or farther down in his current ability. Edited January 4, 2006 by Papasteeze
skidude Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 Ok, I think I have to disagree, but we will never know. All I can say is there are very few guys on the World Cup who have raced as independants, not on a team...Infact I'm not sure there are any, or have been ever. Maybe ski999 knows....
Papasteeze Posted January 4, 2006 Author Report Posted January 4, 2006 (edited) Ok, I think I have to disagree, but we will never know. All I can say is there are very few guys on the World Cup who have raced as independants, not on a team...Infact I'm not sure there are any, or have been ever. Maybe ski999 knows.... You are missing the point. If all those years of race training make you good at gates. Then why isn't Ridge at the bottom of the class? Besides, who said anything about world cup and who said anything about going independent? This thread is about gates and when do they come in training? Edited January 4, 2006 by Papasteeze
Ski Posted January 4, 2006 Report Posted January 4, 2006 Ok, I think I have to disagree, but we will never know. All I can say is there are very few guys on the World Cup who have raced as independants, not on a team...Infact I'm not sure there are any, or have been ever. Maybe ski999 knows.... After a long and painful delve into the depths of my race history mind, I have come up with the number of athletes who have scored World Cup points without having been in a state or country program.... 0. The route to greatness comes from learning from the best. But you want more? My all time favorite ski racer is Marc Girardelli. He was an Austrian, but wanted his dad to be his coach. So he quit the Austrian ski team, declared himself a Luxembourg citizen and skied under their flag to huge World Cup success. Have you prepared yourself to be a World Cup level coach, Rob? If so, then ROCK ON! Bevel at six degrees and set some radical double flush on those double diamonds CB allows you to close. But you may need something closer...how about someone you met? Remember Kistina Koznick, the US Ski Teamer at NASTAR? She grew up in the USSA, but after a few years on the US SKI Team, she started sleeping with her coach, Dan Strip. When he was fired, she threw a fit and threatened to quit. The US Ski Team said bite me. So she quit the year before the SLC Olympics. She had to fundraise $100,000 to travel the WC circuit, then competed at the Olympics. Her experiment as a loner was this: complete failure. She promised to hold up a flag with the names of all the people that gave her money. She finished DFL. She apologized and was accepted back on the US Ski Team, under the Team's conditions and rules. We're here to help, Rob. We'd love to see Ridge win at all the levels through his career. But teaching him to be disrespectful, like he was to me at JF, isn't the least bit helpful.
sibhusky Posted January 5, 2006 Report Posted January 5, 2006 I do think there is some merit to papasteeze's comment about starting a kid too early. A lot of kids who start early DO burn out. I think Ridge is starting at the right point. Siblet started later (11) and it shows. She started SKIING at 3, but racing wasn't until she was 11. It's hard to balance burn out against the problem of eradicating bad habits picked up prior to serious training, but I think it's a bit easier to eradicate at 11 than to stop burn out from a kid starting when they are six or seven. I think a bigger issue is finding a coach the kid wants to excel for and trusts. And whether the parent agrees that the coach is great is secondary. I know the coach here has a lot of parental detractors for various reasons, but the KIDS LOVE HIM. I have heard nothing but praise for him as a coach and face it, that's what you are paying for. Maybe when Ridge starts racing, papa should start buddying up with the parents of the top kids and start asking around about coaches. NOT WHAT THE PARENTS THINK, but WHAT THE KIDS THINK.
Ski Posted January 5, 2006 Report Posted January 5, 2006 IDK, Sib...I think every kid is different. I played soccer and baseball since I was 6 and to even consider burning out? I'm still playing softball (uggg, no baseball leagues around here) and love coaching soccer. When parents crack the whip and create the wrong atmosphere for race kids, then yes, the kids will get sick of it. Racing is cold and often lonely---it almost begs for them to quit; there are often more reasons to quit than to stay. Kids need a certain inner strength, depth of character, and sense of path...in short, kids burn out because of their parents. Other's, like Siblet, will flourish in skiing and in other life ventures. Siblet Top 5 and Top 10!!!!!
Papasteeze Posted January 5, 2006 Author Report Posted January 5, 2006 (edited) NOT WHAT THE PARENTS THINK, but WHAT THE KIDS THINK. Thank you!! When Ridge wants to spend time training then thats what I am going to support, if wants to just run gates, then thats what I will find for him to do. It's all good in my eyes if he his happy, keeping it fun now is the important thing in my eyes. I am not trying to raise a world cup skier or an olympian. but if that is the route he wants to go then I will support that. Until that time, all of my comments are my observations and opinions on what I view as a very antiquated outdated way of handling a sports team that deals with individual performances. I feel strongly that it took a non-conformist like Bode for the whole US Ski team to all of the sudden be notched up. Everyone else is chasing him and subsequently it is improving the whole team. It took an individual like Bode who asked his coach when he was going to set gates.. Everyone who is interested should read that chapter. It's very interesting.... so stereotypical.. Think of this analogy. A pianist who practices chords, knows how to sit at the piano, foot placement but is never allowed to play the whole song until the night of the recital. It doesn't make sense, I tell you. I am talking about young kids, who want to go fast around some flags against a clock. they should be allowed to do that and do it frequently. The last caveat. With the other threads on parks - imagine, if there were gates accessible for kids to race around similar to the way terrain parks are accessible. Think there would be more interest in racing? Ah yep.. for sure.. racing a clock, there is no argument about who did what. It would inspire kids to find out how they can go faster. All this monkey business about proper training and this and that is fine for the kids who are serious about racing, like on a high school level, but not as an adolescent. Ski999 - what did ridge say to you that you took offense to? Sib - there are parents of kid I have been watching out of Sweitzer sp? Scott Snow.. Edited January 5, 2006 by Papasteeze
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