sibhusky Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 But she looked good. 1/14/06 GS First Run: http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prpv.d...AE486FF357E59D8 1/14/06 GS Second Run: http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prpv.d...2E74DE530654434 1/15/06 SL First Run: http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prpv.d...D1A4B383B21406D Quote
Shadows Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 i dont know much about racing, but when i watch it on tv, sometimes positions are seperated by .01 seconds. so...does hittin the gates effect your time (like slow your momentum down) and if it does, would taking the turn that tight as to hit the gate make up for actually hitting it, as opposed to taking a wider turn and not hitting the gate? Quote
sibhusky Posted January 17, 2006 Author Report Posted January 17, 2006 They are gates meant to be hit, so they knock out of your way like one of those clowns you had when you were a kid. You definitely want to go the shortest distance down the hill. Quote
Ski Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 Beautiful pics, Sib, except for those really ugly bib numbers Just to add Shadows, the only racers that don't want to hit gates are downhillers. Gates are usually set so the best line ISN'T directly at or through a downhill gate, but a more rounded line. And hitting a gate at 90mph+ hurts and can dislodge your goggles, etc. Bode Miller is one of the few racers that sometimes will cut a line tight enough to be smashing downhill gates, but it's incredibly risky and often slower. And if you hook an arm in a gate, it can easily dislocate your shoulder at high speed. For most recreational racers, instructors will tell them NOT to try and hit gates on a course like a NASTAR. Hitting gates should come from dynamic angles, with your skis out away from your body, not from just leaning in and trying to hit them without purpose. Quote
Papasteeze Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 Excellent pictures - keep them coming! so...does hittin the gates effect your time (like slow your momentum down) and if it does, would taking the turn that tight as to hit the gate make up for actually hitting it, as opposed to taking a wider turn and not hitting the gate? They are gates meant to be hit, so they knock out of your way like one of those clowns you had when you were a kid. You definitely want to go the shortest distance down the hill. When I hear about mirror polished edges and flouro and areodynamics of speed suits, it just seems to me that any resistence (hitting a gate) can not be good regardless if it is a slightly tighter line to a faster finish. Excluding slalom.... I would think that the cleanest line as close to the gates without touching them would produce the best results. Quote
Ski Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 I would think that the cleanest line as close to the gates without touching them would produce the best results. And you would be wrong Quote
skimom Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 You would be slower than a snail if you didn't hit slalom gates. Quote
Ski Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 You would be slower than a snail if you didn't hit slalom gates. And consider if everyone took the same basic line down a GS. It's the person tipping the skis on edge the most and creating the most angles that slams the gates the hardest. Quote
Shadows Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 ok well, i guess this is kind of complicated but ill ask anyway.. when youre on edge, you accerlerate. so you do infact accerlerate through a turn. (or so im told) has anyone done a study on this? the ratio of accerleration:resistance? or something like that. going straight down a hill flat on your bases with like a 10mph headwind going 45mph. then compare that to you making a (however many degree) turn on you edges with a 10mph headwind. basically... how much does being on your edges accelerate you? i guess it all depends on the angle and all, but in general? Quote
AtomicSkier Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 A ski on flat base is faster. The longer you keep your skis pointing down the fall line between turns the faster you will be obviously. The acceleration that comes from being on edge that sKi999 talks about is the the potentional energy you create when you load a really stiff GS ski to the max. Bending a really stiff ski to an extreme creates so much "power". A really good racer knows how to harness that power to help them accelerate, rather then just pushing them across the trail. The angulation you get, the more the ski is going to bend, the more power you store in the ski, and when you release the power coming out of the turn, you release it down the fall line... Quote
Glenn Posted January 17, 2006 Report Posted January 17, 2006 ok well, i guess this is kind of complicated but ill ask anyway.. when youre on edge, you accerlerate. so you do infact accerlerate through a turn. (or so im told) has anyone done a study on this? the ratio of accerleration:resistance? or something like that. going straight down a hill flat on your bases with like a 10mph headwind going 45mph. then compare that to you making a (however many degree) turn on you edges with a 10mph headwind. basically... how much does being on your edges accelerate you? i guess it all depends on the angle and all, but in general? You don't "speed up" in a turn you accelerate.... Acceleration is the change of speed in a direction. Since you are constantly changing direction of in a turn you are accelerating. Thats why you get "pulled" to the outside of a turn. You can feel acceleration you can't feel speed. However you will exit the turn going the same speed (optimized conditions) or slightly slower than you entered the turn. I don't know enough about ski racers potential so, perhaps with the proper ski and skier you can load with enough power to pick up speed lost in the turn as Atomic mentioned. Quote
skidude Posted January 18, 2006 Report Posted January 18, 2006 Great pictures, great line! You don't "speed up" in a turn you accelerate.... Acceleration is the change of speed in a direction. Since you are constantly changing direction of in a turn you are accelerating. Thats why you get "pulled" to the outside of a turn. You can feel acceleration you can't feel speed. However you will exit the turn going the same speed (optimized conditions) or slightly slower than you entered the turn. I don't know enough about ski racers potential so, perhaps with the proper ski and skier you can load with enough power to pick up speed lost in the turn as Atomic mentioned. When you go threw the turn, you slow down a little, but if you are carving the skis then you are putting energy into them, so when you finish pressuring the ski at the end of a turn it will 'snap' you to the next turn (idealy) adding to your speed. Quote
Ski Posted January 18, 2006 Report Posted January 18, 2006 how much does being on your edges accelerate you? i guess it all depends on the angle and all, but in general? Bringing it back to the very basics, there are two ways to turn skis: skidding and carving. Carving will always be faster (aside from a "stivitz", which involves a little of both, but only done in about one turn every three different courses). So once someone is able to carve a great turn, leaving those two razor-like parallel trails in the snow, then the next step is to maximize the carve. The outside leg becomes nearly straight and skeletally aligned. This takes pressure off the muscles; just a little bend in the downhill knee to absorb some bumps. The inside knee is bent and drawn up; that ski matches the arc of the other and is also out from your body. These angles allow for you to carry the most speed through the turn. And when the ski is bent with all that pressure, it is finally released at the end of the turn. That "pop" is one of the things that separates the greats from the rest. Using that energy to go forward instead of up. Before his motorcycle accident, Hermann Maier was the best at this. Other skiers were prettier to watch, but nobody loaded and unloaded a ski like Maier. Quote
poconogeorge1 Posted January 18, 2006 Report Posted January 18, 2006 Bringing it back to the very basics, there are two ways to turn skis: skidding and carving. Carving will always be faster (aside from a "stivitz", which involves a little of both, but only done in about one turn every three different courses). So once someone is able to carve a great turn, leaving those two razor-like parallel trails in the snow, then the next step is to maximize the carve. The outside leg becomes nearly straight and skeletally aligned. This takes pressure off the muscles; just a little bend in the downhill knee to absorb some bumps. The inside knee is bent and drawn up; that ski matches the arc of the other and is also out from your body. These angles allow for you to carry the most speed through the turn. And when the ski is bent with all that pressure, it is finally released at the end of the turn. That "pop" is one of the things that separates the greats from the rest. Using that energy to go forward instead of up. Before his motorcycle accident, Hermann Maier was the best at this. Other skiers were prettier to watch, but nobody loaded and unloaded a ski like Maier. Question Is the same amount of pressure applied to both skis? Quote
Ski Posted January 18, 2006 Report Posted January 18, 2006 Question Is the same amount of pressure applied to both skis? It changes through the turn. A turn begins with a tipping of the downhill ski, then pressure toward the shovel. Depending on steepness/conditions, you may begin with 60/40 downhill ski, then as much as 80/20, or more at the apex of the turn. But modern ski racing is much less downhill pressure than the old style, where you were taught to unweight the uphill ski, sometimes completely. The modern technique is also much better with a very wide stance. The biggest epiphany I had at race camp this season was to start thinking about my little toe on the uphill ski. Imagine that you want to set both skis on edge in a turn...it's easy to get the downhill ski to tip on edge and carve. But that damn uphill ski? Think about driving the little toe of your uphill ski into the hill, so that outside foot is mimicking what your downhill foot is doing. Get that right and your turns are twice as strong. Quote
JohnnyP Posted January 18, 2006 Report Posted January 18, 2006 Let me try to clarify a little more about bases and edges. The old adage of Base/fast-edge/slow is true, only if every other variable is equal. If you were to stand on the top of the hill and go straight down the base of the ski will go faster. That means if it were possible to ski on the edges only in a straight line, you would go slower than on the PTex bases. But thats only the theoretical view. In practicality, you never can be on the edges all the time or the bases all the time. When you are in a turn you are compressing all that speed and momentum that you are carrying into a shorter distance. I dont know the engineering formula for it but think about this: you are going 20mph down the hill, you carve a turn at a 45 degree angle, all that energy that was going straight is now being compressed into a much smaller space, the actual speed that your body and skis are traveling is increased. I read somewhere that hockey players when making a sharp turn in a corner can be traveling at around 45 mph, the same principle pertains to carving a turn in skiing. I also read in Ski Racing that in a hard carved GS turn a ski racer will create more than 10 G's ( dont quote me, I think the number was around thirteen). Astronauts encounter around 9 G's during takeoff in a SaturnIV, however they must deal with it over an extended period of time, whereas a ski racer only deals with it for a split second if that. Now with all that said, in a course where it requires you to move across the hill and is steeper, you will be on your edges for a much bigger percentage of the time than in a flat course with 'lazy' turns. When on a flatter course it is beneficial to try to ride more on the bases of the skis, for two reasons: one, thats where the wax is and the bases are faster, two, when you turn too hard and over carve, you compress all that speed into a small space ( which is good for the steeps and ice, but bad for straighter running) I dont know if this helps but this is how I learned to understand the concept, I am not an engineer and it is hard for me to explain. A couple of you have given good explanantions already, this is just my take on it. Quote
LineSki Posted January 19, 2006 Report Posted January 19, 2006 ok well, i guess this is kind of complicated but ill ask anyway.. when youre on edge, you accerlerate. so you do infact accerlerate through a turn. (or so im told) has anyone done a study on this? the ratio of accerleration:resistance? or something like that. going straight down a hill flat on your bases with like a 10mph headwind going 45mph. then compare that to you making a (however many degree) turn on you edges with a 10mph headwind. basically... how much does being on your edges accelerate you? i guess it all depends on the angle and all, but in general? you need to go back to school Quote
Shadows Posted January 19, 2006 Report Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) you need to go back to school i am soon but it wont do anything for me you dont have much room to talk either Edited January 19, 2006 by Shadows Quote
skidz14 Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 i'm only in my 2nd year skiing...this was a great thread for me to read. thanks for some great info, everyone. i feel enlightened. rock on. Quote
NJSkiFamily Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 Putting pressure on the little toe of the uphill ski is exactly what my ski instructor at Smuggs told me to do. Its a great visual to use in the turn. We practiced that many times in the class. Far better than worrying about weight distribution between the uphill and downhill legs. Both my instructors at Smuggs used ski racing techniques to help teach better turning skills. One neat one was to ski without the poles and when you want to turn you stick your arm straight out at a 90 degree angle to your body. If you want to make a left turn then stick your left arm out perpendicular to your body while keeping the other arm at your side. Do the same with your right arm when making a right turn. It looks silly but helped with getting both skis on an angle. Quote
skimom Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 Hey, NJskifamily, when are we going to meet for a few NASTAR runs? I may be at CB this weekend, depending on the strength of the ASRA magnet. Any chance you will be out with the NJlets? Quote
NJSkiFamily Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 We're shooting for Saturday at cb to do NASTAR. The kids can't wait. This will be our first chance at doing NASTAR this season. My daughter and I were camping this past weekend so no skiing. As much as we love skiing, weekend camping trips at YMCA camps are not to be missed. Quote
skimom Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 It's been a tough season. We just got on the NASTAR scoreboard last night for the first time. Maybe I'll see you there. Quote
NJSkiFamily Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 We were at Elk over MLK weekend and they don't do NASTAR so we missed that chance. My husband is totally out of commission as he's still not 100% recovered from his bout with pneumonia. I wear a black Giro helmet with white Anon goggles. Easiest to spot is my daughter - she wears a pink jacket and yellow helmet. Quote
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