Sno Mountain Skier Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Ha, Sno, don't beat on the other locals too hard.... Ya, it did come off dickish, but i couldnt think of any other way to say it.
Ski Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Posted July 17, 2006 Ya, it did come off dickish, but i couldnt think of any other way to say it. Well, we like your candor. But I think you might sometimes scare the shit out of newbies. And I should know, since I've done it several times...er, numerous times.
bigdaddyk Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Is it possible for them to get a new lift in and trails for this year? Time is running short. If I'm not mistaken, don't they have to get permission from dept. of forestry ( or something like that) before they cut down trees and add trails?
Sno Mountain Skier Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Is it possible for them to get a new lift in and trails for this year? Time is running short. If I'm not mistaken, don't they have to get permission from dept. of forestry ( or something like that) before they cut down trees and add trails? Ya, there is no way they could do it.
Ski Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Posted July 17, 2006 Their plan, as I understood it, was to set Sno Mountain ahead of the competition by having FOUR 1.5 mile top to bottom runs, along with a high speed lift that ran next to Long Haul. It isn't planned for this season. This season's most important upgrade will be the 180 new snow guns and upgrades to Long Haul. The committment to snowmaking is a first for Sno Mountain. I don't think there's any further approval needed from the state/county to cut the proposed trails. A VERY snow covered Upper/Lower Runaway and Fast Track should be open and directly lift served for this season. No more Phoebe to Iron Horse to an uphill ski.
Skiier1212 Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Way to talk out of your ass. There was a public hearing with what they planned, 3 trails, 1 lift. Not whatever u said. Hey, how bout you get bent, hows that? Sorry I didn't get the memo about the "public hearing". To answer other questions, I work in the rental shop, love it down there, best job on the mountain by far.
Papasteeze Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Their plan, as I understood it, was to set Sno Mountain ahead of the competition by having FOUR 1.5 mile top to bottom runs, along with a high speed lift that ran next to Long Haul. It isn't planned for this season. This season's most important upgrade will be the 180 new snow guns and upgrades to Long Haul. The committment to snowmaking is a first for Sno Mountain. I don't think there's any further approval needed from the state/county to cut the proposed trails. Did they talk about snowmaking for the new trails in season two's upgrades? PADEP - typically, clearing on slopes over 10% is prohibited with out local, county and state sedimentation and erosion plans. IF there are any violations (sediment leaving the site) - it can get very serious as far as cease and desists are concerned.
Ski Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Posted July 17, 2006 The expansion plan just requires the paperwork being filed just like for me getting the two building permits for my addition. Sno Mountain made it perfectly clear what they needed and have the majority commissioners on their side. We spent the entire spring season watching little dynamite mushroom clouds rise over the mall construction adjacent to the ski area. Approval for the new runs is as much of a sure thing as can be, the way I see it.
Papasteeze Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 The expansion plan just requires the paperwork being filed just like for me getting the two building permits for my addition. I hope so for the sake of the new owner and the people who are looking forward to the expansion of Sno Mountain. NPDES (federal code) requires that any disturbance over 1 acre have an application for a permit filed. That permit then goes to the state DEP which then typically goes to the county, in a lot of cases the munincipal authorities also get involved. Google grading permits, they are far far far more complicated than they have ever been, for good reason.. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch... Owner Cited for Filling in Wetlands at Blue Mountain Ski Area The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has issued a Clean Water Act complaint against the Tuthill Corp., owner of the Blue Mountain Ski Area, for the alleged unlawful dumping of fill material in a stream and wetlands at the ski resort in Lower Towamensing Township, Carbon County. EPA seeks a $50,000 penalty for the company's failure to obtain a required Clean Water Act permit before dumping fill material into 1,100 feet of a stream flowing into the Aquashicola Creek (a tributary of the Lehigh River) and adjacent wetlands. The alleged violations occurred from April through June 2002. Under the Clean Water Act, a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers permit is required before dredged or fill material may be discharged into wetlands or waterways. The permit requirement is designed to minimize the destruction of these natural resources, which serve a number of critical environmental and economic functions - including flood control, water filtration, and wildlife habitat. The company has the right to a hearing to contest the alleged violation and proposed penalty. <> For more information about wetlands and permitting requirements, visit http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/ .
Ski Posted July 17, 2006 Author Report Posted July 17, 2006 Sno Mountain looked at CB and Elk expansions, so I can only assume they know the drill. The prez of SMLLC is a Center City lawyer. I know CB got hammered with a fine two years ago for a minor grade change or something equally trivial. The bottom line is that it comes back to Lackawanna County's approval. The state may take application, but that's mostly just to get a fee and forward it to the local authority. Lackawanna is so interested in Sno Mountain's success that it's made them guarantee to stay in operation for 10 years, using all reasonable means.
Papasteeze Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Just thought you might be interested in the link below. All it takes is one fanatic (tree hugger) in the county conservation office to make getting approvals difficult. "the county" will have its hands tied by the other regulatory bodies (Fed and state). Lackawanna's conservation office appears to be staffed by volunteers. I deal with these types of regulatory offices all the time. There has to be a skilled staff educated with these permits or it will drag out forever. Probably like you said, it's in the bag... I just am painfully aware of the development process. The permits can't be filed until there is an equitable owner. If you do the time line math for each permit, assuming that everything is accepted the first time. well Best wishes. http://lccd.net/contents.htm
Sno Mountain Skier Posted July 17, 2006 Report Posted July 17, 2006 Rob, you know SKI is just a fan of his home mountain and these plans take effect when they said they would. I dont no why your getting on his case about it.
Papasteeze Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 naaaaaaaaa just a little dose of reality that I want to be wrong on. If they can fast track Federal and state permits on major amounts of earth disturbance, then I want to know how.. Thats all.... Dude you just like to F-ing argue... nothing to argue assssss. euphoria is a glorious thing until the "WTF... you said.... " happens
Ski Posted July 18, 2006 Author Report Posted July 18, 2006 naaaaaaaaa just a little dose of reality that I want to be wrong on. If they can fast track Federal and state permits on major amounts of earth disturbance, then I want to know how.. Thats all.... nothing to argue assssss. euphoria is a glorious thing until the "WTF... you said.... " happens I have been polite. I have provided the facts as I know them. You are about the last fucking person on Earth to talk about reality. Go back to singing "Another One Bites the Dust" after your great NASTAR family moments in history. Yeah, I know that's what you guys do and I think it's creepy as hell. Look at an aerial shot of the current projects going on at the mountain. A couple of runs is about .01% of what's happening. IMPACT DOES MATTER. You must work for a family member; no fucking way anyone could possible hire you for anything. Everything you ever post is bullshit. I'm not even sure you believe it, since you are so into "hype". Go stir up shit someplace else. And remember, Rob: reclaim your manhood: buy a Hummer. Oh, crap, you already tried that.
Papasteeze Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 yeah yeah yeah and I take pictures of high school girls and brag getting some compromising shots on the internet.... talk about creepy.... and booo hooooo I provided the facts as I know them too. You miss the part where I say I want to be wrong... didn't you? you shallow little............. go take some more pictures and send me some would ya? futhermore... ahahhhhhhh aaaaa the real ski comes shining through. you make me proud.
Ski Posted July 18, 2006 Author Report Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) Edited: too many references to Rob's narcissistic personality dissorder, in which he believes what he says is true. Edited July 18, 2006 by ski
DHarrisburg Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 Yeah, I know that's what you guys do and I think it's creepy as hell. There are now 149 days until Zonked's 18th birthday!
Ski Posted July 18, 2006 Author Report Posted July 18, 2006 Gotta follow me around, DH? Nothing better to do? The signature has another meaning, but if it upsets you, then all the better, pizza boy.
Ski Posted July 18, 2006 Author Report Posted July 18, 2006 easy there Ski...did you know that Pizzaboy knows the owners of Airblaster...respect him... Ha, I let Ty play Airblasteroids, or whatever it was called...I probably shouldn't post her opinion of it, but she went back to her Gameboy after about 30 seconds.
DHarrisburg Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 I probably shouldn't post her opinion of it, but she went back to her Gameboy after about 30 seconds. Probably because that game is god-awful.
Papasteeze Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 naaaaaaaaa just a little dose of reality that I want to be wrong on. If they can fast track Federal and state permits on major amounts of earth disturbance, then I want to know how.. Thats all.... sooooo.. back on subject... when did they say the trail expansions are planned for? I don't think there's any further approval needed from the state/county to cut the proposed trails. There are so many approvals needed that I am not sure that I can list them all. I doubt that the new owner has applied for the permits. They can't apply until they have an agreement of sale in place. (equitable owner) - The first one is the NPDES which is the federal. then it goes to PADEP which is the state agency that governs earth disturbance. Ski, I am sure you are right though. Lackawannadoseofreality is well above earth disturbance permits as evidenced by all the mining operations. The fed and state have other things to worry about than a little bit of treeclearing in lackawanna.
mbike-ski Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 Man you guys are beatin on Papa, I don't think he was trying to piss on your parade (this time) but was just stating what is typically involved in land clearing permits. He's right that these things can drag out forEVER, even when some big players and stakes are involved. Hopefully for SnoMountain having the county on their side will make this a slam dunk but even so can take weeks/months just to complete the freakin' paper shuffle. It'll give them time to work on that moose logo!!
Ski Posted July 18, 2006 Author Report Posted July 18, 2006 sooooo.. back on subject... Shut up, Rob. You know what you were doing; I know what you were doing. You act like a dancing monkey just to get a rise out of people...you give out half-assed info in a field you're are suppose to be an expert. Did you ignore the most important issue in a project like this on purpose, or out of ignorance? Have you ever heard of "recent transaction"? Go ask your current project lawyer. Ask him why it's far easier to get permits for a small business that needs to do some sort of land work when they are located adjacent to a major project, say in a 200:1 ratio. In this case, the major project includes 90 days of blasting rock and dozens of acres of tree clearing. And this case also involves a business on the other end that employs former county employees and is under 10 year contract to use all possible means to remain in business. It's like the perfect storm for the fast track to getting approval. You were just trying to be a dick by presenting part of the information. Oh, and maybe at some point from the 1960's to the 1990's you had some some work done in Central Jersey and used Alpaugh Excavating, a mid-size excavation company just north of Round Valley Reservoir, in Lebanon, NJ. He's right that these things can drag out forEVER, even when some big players and stakes are involved. Hopefully for SnoMountain having the county on their side will make this a slam dunk but even so can take weeks/months just to complete the freakin' paper shuffle. The players are Lackawanna County's majority commissioners and Sno Mountain LLC. The same players that are finalizing everything as we post and are preparing for closing. And that's my point: SMLLC has been working out all conditions with Lackawanna County prior to this sale. The new trail expansion was documented and presented to the County during the public meeting and discussed further just before the deal was announced. Rob is suggesting that SMLLC and the County are pretending like the expansion isn't an issue prior to sale. Like it'll be popping up as some new issue. But he's DEAD wrong. Both party's intentions have been made clear. And, as I wrote, they aren't doing trail expansion for this season. They have over a year to get the project lined up.
Papasteeze Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 Montage locals are so psyched about Sno mountain...why do you have to rain on their parade???? The parade hasn't started. I'm just the weather forecaster. The state and feds and the conservation districts are the rain. Whether or not it storms is pure hypothetical guesswork. I posted these regs because I know the number one hold up to trail expansions. Take your beloved Blue for example, what do think is really holding them up? No money? No contractors? or No permits? which one is most likely? Some of you would be surprised to see the criteria for allowing earth disturbance over 1 acre in relation to storm water run-off controls. The complexity becomes expotential when you are dealing with steep slopes, combine that with acres of rock along with inexperienced developers and you have the word DELAY written all over the project. The often temporary controls and sequence of construction that are neeeded prior to the actual clearing are all engineered to 100 year storm plans that are very costly to create and get approved. Forget the hardcosts of temporary sediment basins, diversion berms and swales along with miles of silt fence that have to be installed before one tree can be removed. Those engineering plans when estimated are the hold up. Not only do you have to prove that you have the money, you have to escrow an additional equal amount as insurance in the event that the developer does not complete the work. If you know where the potential problems and pitfalls are, you can fix them before it becomes crisis management which usually just ends up with nothing getting done but a bunch of finger pointing. We can only hope that sno mountain in thier million dollar speculative proposal got their engineering done. I doubt it though. Would you believe that all of our development plans that have slopes over 20% are called prohibitive slopes and are shaded dark grey? That means basically, we can't even look at them let alone touch them. This is mandated by local and county. Now imagine this Doug, what if the trail expansion doesn't happen for the reasons listed out above. Wouldn't I feel like a real ass for not letting someone know? This is why if I was in the counties shoes, I would have gone with Sno-Time. Thier proposal is likely to be much more realistic since they are already in the business - the snow business, not water park, just snow... You see, I predict that there will be a water park at Montage and that that will be the new owners focus. Not there is anything wrong with that. it sounds like new guns are coming along with groomers and facilities to handle the summer masses. I just wanted you guys to have the info/ammo to make sure that the new owners hold true to thier promise of trail expansion. Of Course.... All of this is probably moot because the new guys know exactly what they are doing and how much it costs because they spent a million dollars doing so.
Papasteeze Posted July 18, 2006 Report Posted July 18, 2006 I am not an expert ski..... I do not have engineering degrees. But I am an expert in getting approvals for developments that require earth disturbance. Things may be different up there than they are down here. I really don't know. I do know this. The tides and tributaries are owned by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. These streams are the reason for the stringent STATE permitting process. Unless the commercial property that you spoke of had land development plans for the trail expansion then there is no way an neighboring property can piggy back on that permit. It has nothing to do with the what the County wants or expects. Keep in mind that you have an executive council that is probably handling this sale. Last time I checked, no council has the authority to override the Conservation Districts regulations. The NPDES Stormwater program requires operators of construction sites one acre or larger (including smaller sites that are part of a larger common plan of development) to obtain authorization to discharge stormwater under an NPDES construction stormwater permit. The NPDES came from the EPA. Most states now handle this federal regulation through the Individual states and then subsequently by the County conservation districts, while it possible that the LCD is in the pocket of your County Council, it is highly unlikely. If someone is publicly saying that since the neighbors are building, then so can you is badly mistaken, unless, the controls have already been designed and approved for the trail expansion. BTW approved development plans are community information, the court house has them.
Recommended Posts