Sorta funny

[Papasteeze]

WOW Why do you get so hostile over my posts, especially when I make it clear that I am happy and want to see the that place ran as a ski resort for ever. You act as if no one is entitled to have an opinion. You act as though no one can express thier thoughts on anything that you disagree with. What is up with that? This board was founded on the principal to allow people to be open. Can't you go along with that? Apparently I can't express an opinion without you digging up the past in an eye raising hostile manner. Thats a shame. Haven't you ever heard the expression "lets agree to disagree"?

 

 

 

If Rob and Old Geezer would like to post one single thing Carlson has ever done to indicate he wants to do anything but run a succesful resort, LET'S HEAR IT.

 

It's not so much IN MY OPINION of what they have done, it is what they haven't done.

 

Now. I'll try to keep this short. It's hard to express my feelings in words, but I'll try.

 

Remember the emphasis on the 1 million they spent during the due diligence and/or feasibility study? I can only speak from experience that to the best of my knowledge builders don't go on and on about how much they have spent as a reason for the deal to have to go through.

 

Seems to me that they were really worried about losing that money if the sale did not close.

 

OK. now add another 5 million cash? or is it a banks money?

 

Initial improvements to date; Snow guns, piping, some cursory repairs. Maybe another 2 million?

 

So to date they have at least 8 tied up. They should be 8 times more worried than when they had just 1million out of pocket. Correct me where I am wrong. Lackawana carried a 9m debt and lost 1m last year, correct? Any idea of what thier ticket sales/visits were last year?

 

NOW.. Montage historically has not balanced its books since when? Has that resort ever had a year in the black? We know that recently it has operated in the red. Why? Simple answer, not enough ticket sales...

 

OK.. they have had since July to put together a marketing plan to sell tickets. That is a lot of time. These are very smart people, certainly there is a business plan with a focus on marketing. Now, I am not up in the scranton area, but I would think that by now there would be some media buzz heard all the way down here. It could be that they have too much work to do yet and they don't dare advertise something they can't deliver.

 

Even so, I would think that there would be press releases like what CB does to get the hype rolling, Bill Boards, Coupons, Discount lift tickets at every ski shop, group sales people at every ski club meeting. How about a Mountain Rep here on PASR pumping it up? Something. Maybe they are in the New York Times, Inquirer and on TV and have a zillion billboards up and I am totally wrong

 

I seems to me that it has been eerily quiet. Hey, maybe this groups doesn't care, this is just a fancy expensive playground to call there own. Who really knows?

 

So now, when someone comes on this board and reiterates what I have basically thought all along, I decided to chime in. What is the matter with that? If anything, you might consider it a good thing, because if Carlson or any of his henchman are reading this and I am way out in left field, don't you think that it would motivate him just a little bit to solidify Sno Mountains long term plans to always remain a ski resort?

 

PEACE!

Edited November 22, 2006 by freeridintre

[Ski]

It's not so much IN MY OPINION of what they have done, it is what they haven't done.

 

Now. I'll try to keep this short. It's hard to express my feelings in words, but I'll try.

 

Remember the emphasis on the 1 million they spent during the due diligence and/or feasibility study? I can only speak from experience that to the best of my knowledge builders don't go on and on about how much they have spent as a reason for the deal to have to go through.

 

Seems to me that they were really worried about losing that money if the sale did not close.

 

It surprises you that a builder, developer, or a school teacher is worried about losing money from creating a proposal? You've never heard of that? What cave are you from? Donald Trump spends a million on a feasibilty report and you don't think he worries about having wasted the money if the report is positive and the sale doesn't go through?

 

OK. now add another 5 million cash? or is it a banks money?

 

Initial improvements to date; Snow guns, piping, some cursory repairs. Maybe another 2 million?

 

So to date they have at least 8 tied up. They should be 8 times more worried than when they had just 1million out of pocket. Correct me where I am wrong. Lackawana carried a 9m debt and lost 1m last year, correct? Any idea of what thier ticket sales/visits were last year?

 

Blah, blah, blah...maybe they should be 11 times more concerned, or 42 times...Jesus, they spent a million dollars to find out that it was feasible and to present it to the people of Lackawanna. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

NOW.. Montage historically has not balanced its books since when? Has that resort ever had a year in the black? We know that recently it has operated in the red. Why? Simple answer, not enough ticket sales...

 

Wow, that's impressive. Montage didn't make money because they didn't sell enough tickets. How'd you figure that out?

 

OK.. they have had since July to put together a marketing plan to sell tickets. That is a lot of time. These are very smart people, certainly there is a business plan with a focus on marketing. Now, I am not up in the scranton area, but I would think that by now there would be some media buzz heard all the way down here. It could be that they have too much work to do yet and they don't dare advertise something they can't deliver.

 

Ever consider the fact that an asshole held up the sale and threw off the entire projection dates that were presented to the public? Washo succeeded in nearly costing us snow guns for this year, as well as most work on the new lodge and all work on the summer attractions. Now, your saying it's part of Sno Mountain's conspiracy to NOT develop the ski area and summer resort. You've been wrong on all accounts and still chose to ignore the fact that it was Washo's court battle that held up everything.

 

Rob needs to feel the buzz to be convinced. You're how old?

 

Even so, I would think that there would be press releases like what CB does to get the hype rolling, Bill Boards, Coupons, Discount lift tickets at every ski shop, group sales people at every ski club meeting. How about a Mountain Rep here on PASR pumping it up? Something. Maybe they are in the New York Times, Inquirer and on TV and have a zillion billboards up and I am totally wrong

 

I seems to me that it has been eerily quiet. Hey, maybe this groups doesn't care, this is just a fancy expensive playground to call there own. Who really knows?

 

Yeah, we'll be enjoying Sno Mountain and nobody else is invited.

 

So now, when someone comes on this board and reiterates what I have basically thought all along, I decided to chime in. What is the matter with that? If anything, you might consider it a good thing, because if Carlson or any of his henchman are reading this and I am way out in left field, don't you think that it would motivate him just a little bit to solidify Sno Mountains long term plans to always remain a ski resort?

 

Old Geezer accused a good, honest man of being corrupt. Did you miss that? Old Geezer made up fake statements, posting that he didn't know anything about the court case, but that it was so close that Carlson must be guilty. He was HATING on Carlson and slandering him. And you jump in just because you get off on it.

Edited November 22, 2006 by freeridintre

[Papasteeze]

Ok... you broke it down point by piont. I was trying to convey a big picture. Let me try again.

 

With 1 million at risk, Sno was hugely motivated to see the sale go through so that they could get started.

 

Now 8 million or thereabouts is at risk. Where and when are we going to see the motivation to recover that?

 

 

If you type. http://www.skimontage.com you go to the website it doesn't redirect, it seems to have an error on it, but from what I can see it doesn't even mention Sno Mountain. Wouldn't it stand to reason that when they bought montage the also bought the website? I would think that something simple like that would have been implemented from day one as part of thier marketing plan.

 

How many skier visits does PA accommodate? 1 million? Sure, we all here know that happenings at Montage, but what about the average snow persons who are planning for trips this year? Do they know that they are under new management? Do they know that Sno is increasing the snow making power several times over? Water park? Trail Expansions?

 

I wish I could conduct some type of survey and ask "have you heard of Sno Mountain?" It just seems that have had plenty of time to plan on how they were going to get the word out and with all of the delays, I would think that the marketing budget from July to November would have been released all at once in a huge media blitz starting the day after the closing.

 

Now I am going out on a limb that you will no doubtedly saw off. I wonder if there is a marketing plan at all? Why with the original timing of July would there not be? Has any advertisements been released at all? It could be that they got caught up in the battle and forgot the reason they were buying the resort which is to run it as a ski resort and to sell tickets. OR is it possible, that selling tickets and making the resort cash flow is not important to them right now. Which begs the question. Why not put all these improvements in during fair weather.

 

They are targeting a mid-december opening date. Why aren't we being bombarded?

 

OK - just to take thier own community synopsis and tie into my long term prediction and guess of the motivation of the buyer. I am copying and bolding an interesting blurb. In other words, when talking about the Sno community, why is it important to mention the housing prices 1 mile away? It is well known that Montage is not a destination resort. The Sno Mountain Community description is ultra focused on ammenities that would be interesting to a home buyer not a weekend skier.

 

Sn

[riderossi]

On a positive note...was up at Sno today, lots of "hustle and bustle" going on. There was a bunch of snowgun tower bases laying around the bottom of the bunny, probably around 20. There was some guys working on them (welding). There was more snowguns over on the concrete area at the base of mainline with some guys walking aroud and a tractor doing some work. I was with the girl who wasn't exactly as enthused as i was so i couldn't stay long enough to get any worth while info or pictures. There were 2 guys standing near the bottom of the bunny that appeared to be working on something, possibly a magic carpet, but that's just speculation at this point.

[Ski]

You can't seem to figure out what nefarious plan they have, but there sure must be one. Is there any mention of donkey turds on the website? That could hold a clue to your conspiracy theory. Just follow the turds, Rob...you'll find it...

 

 

On a positive note...was up at Sno today, lots of "hustle and bustle" going on. There was a bunch of snowgun tower bases laying around the bottom of the bunny, probably around 20. There was some guys working on them (welding). There was more snowguns over on the concrete area at the base of mainline with some guys walking aroud and a tractor doing some work. I was with the girl who wasn't exactly as enthused as i was so i couldn't stay long enough to get any worth while info or pictures. There were 2 guys standing near the bottom of the bunny that appeared to be working on something, possibly a magic carpet, but that's just speculation at this point.

 

Bullsh*t. You must be on drugs, riderossi. I heard there were demolition crews and moving vans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Thanks for the update riderossi... )

[riderossi]

 

Bullsh*t. You must be on drugs, riderossi. I heard there were demolition crews and moving vans.

 

 

 

I'll probably stop up tomorrow if i get the chance and take some pictures considering there shouldn't be anybody there due to the holiday.

Edited November 23, 2006 by riderossi

[Papasteeze]

So the former County employees at Montage should now be recieving there first Sno Mountain Pay check.. Did sno time match the same benefits, 401 plans insurance, vacation time? etc etc

 

 

Hey here is a question for you? Since every one likes an empty slope but knows that an empty slope is a sign of trouble. What happens if Sno is forced to sell because they can't pay the note? Is the parcel Deed restricted against anyone developing it?

Edited November 23, 2006 by Papasteeze

[Ski]

 

I'll probably stop up tomorrow if i get the chance and take some pictures considering there shouldn't be anybody there due to the holiday.

That'd be great. We're heading up on Monday for our passes and maybe score a new moose hat

[riderossi]

That'd be great. We're heading up on Monday for our passes and maybe score a new moose hat

 

i would definitely score one of those and wear it for opening day but $30 would break the bank for me. I'm still desperately scrounging for money to get a pass. I remember when i was working there the one manager had us go and purchase a baseball hat for him from the gift shop because he wanted to hit the slopes later on in the day He recently fired the lady who was now working in the gift shop so he was afraid to do it himself

[Ski]

$30? Wow. I guess I meant shoplift a moose hat.

 

 

BTW, the season pass discount is now "before 12/14" instead of "before 12/1".

[trackbiker]

$30? Wow. I guess I meant shoplift a moose hat.

 

The site says, "Internet Special, Sno Mountain Cap: $29.95"

 

WOW! $29.95 for a $5.00 cap! Some "Special"! What's the "regular" price, $49.95?

 

OK. I could see paying $10 - $12.00 for it considering "resort pricing", it's a new place, etc. But if that is the "special" price, how much is a burger, fries, and a drink going to cost?

 

I can see it now; Sno Mountain VALUE MEAL! ONLY $59.95! PLUS you get a free toy!

[Ski]

Jeez, dude, the shipping is free. Those caps weigh a shi*load.

[Ski]

So after a little research at a few baseball cap customizers, here's the typical deal for a small company looking for a new logo cap (this is from a company called copycaps.com):

 

"A good quality 100% cotton cap with 5 letters can cost as little as $17.00. That same cap with a lot of letters and graphics, sewn on the front as well as graphics or letters on the side or back can cost as much as $25-$35. The record for one baseball cap is US$96.00 (Click here to see Rob's own team logo that we custom digitized for him)...but on average our custom caps cost about $20-$25."

 

So Sno Mountain probably ordered a few dozen and paid $20 for them and are looking at making 33% profit, minus the employee doing the work and any shipping charges (both for the caps being shipped to the mountain, as well for any caps shipped to individual buyers. Unless the 'employee' is a volunteer, it's not looking like a terrific money-maker for them.

 

Funny how facts sometimes get in the way of outrage, eh?

[trackbiker]

So after a little research at a few baseball cap customizers, here's the typical deal for a small company looking for a new logo cap (this is from a company called copycaps.com):

 

"A good quality 100% cotton cap with 5 letters can cost as little as $17.00. That same cap with a lot of letters and graphics, sewn on the front as well as graphics or letters on the side or back can cost as much as $25-$35. The record for one baseball cap is US$96.00 (Click here to see Rob's own team logo that we custom digitized for him)...but on average our custom caps cost about $20-$25."

 

So Sno Mountain probably ordered a few dozen and paid $20 for them and are looking at making 33% profit, minus the employee doing the work and any shipping charges (both for the caps being shipped to the mountain, as well for any caps shipped to individual buyers. Unless the 'employee' is a volunteer, it's not looking like a terrific money-maker for them.

 

Funny how facts sometimes get in the way of outrage, eh?

 

Ski:

I understand that you are being supportive of Sno Mountain and wish them success; as do I and most others on this forum.

But anyway you slice it, that cap is WAY over priced. And it is listed as a "Special".

I happen to have first hand experience purchasing promotional items. Of course volume plays a part, but if you buy at least one gross (144) of those hats you can get them for under $5.00 each (good quality, 100% cotton). Four color embroidery for that logo is at MOST another $5.00 per cap. Design fees are negligable today with CAD.

I couldn't find any caps from Stratton or Stowe, the two priciest resorts in the east, but here's one from Okemo It has 2 color embroidery. Two more colors would not add $12.45 to the price.

 

"Outrage" is not the correct word. I think the price is ridiculously high by any standard. If they did pay the prices in your quote above, they need to find someone else to purchase their merchandise.

 

If Sno Mountain is going to succeed, they need to listen to feedback from customers.

They're already behind schedule, through no fault of their own, and they need to draw new people to the mountain. A "special" $29.95 cap does not give a good impression before they have made a flake of snow.

Maybe a "free hat day" like the baseball teams do would be a better idea once they are 100% open.

JMHO.

[riderossi]

Ski:

I understand that you are being supportive of Sno Mountain and wish them success; as do I and most others on this forum.

But anyway you slice it, that cap is WAY over priced. And it is listed as a "Special".

I happen to have first hand experience purchasing promotional items. Of course volume plays a part, but if you buy at least one gross (144) of those hats you can get them for under $5.00 each (good quality, 100% cotton). Four color embroidery for that logo is at MOST another $5.00 per cap. Design fees are negligable today with CAD.

I couldn't find any caps from Stratton or Stowe, the two priciest resorts in the east, but here's one from Okemo It has 2 color embroidery. Two more colors would not add $12.45 to the price.

 

"Outrage" is not the correct word. I think the price is ridiculously high by any standard. If they did pay the prices in your quote above, they need to find someone else to purchase their merchandise.

 

If Sno Mountain is going to succeed, they need to listen to feedback from customers.

They're already behind schedule, through no fault of their own, and they need to draw new people to the mountain. A "special" $29.95 cap does not give a good impression before they have made a flake of snow.

Maybe a "free hat day" like the baseball teams do would be a better idea once they are 100% open.

JMHO.

 

Yeah since we all want a free pink hat. Personally, i wouldn't give a flying F if they were charging $75 for the hats. The only thing i care about is snow on the slopes. And by the looks of the weather for the next 2 weeks, i don't think Sno is going to be too far behind the game anyway. Montage always shoots for a december 7th opening, an extra week, although not ideal, doesn't get me angry

[Ski]

Ha, I'm with riderossi on this one...

 

Track, I'm not trying to give you crap and I'm really not in the market for any new hats. You said the hats were way overpriced, so it just made me curious as to what kind of deal you can get for hats...

 

So I went to Google and typed customized baseball caps, or something similar. Then, I clicked on the first few sites and hit the prompts as if I were a customer. And they consistantly told me I could buy some customized baseball caps for $20 to $35.

 

I swear on Jeff's life that this is all true.

 

Am I a wiseass for adding "Funny how facts sometimes get in the way of outrage, eh?"

 

Yes. I admit it.

 

But it's all about QUANTITY when you are buying customized hats and shirts. Apparently, Sno didn't want to sink a ton of money into buying a billion hats, so they likely paid near the maximum price. Someone in marketing took a shot at a number and probably had to keep within a budget of a few hundred dollars. Okemo, on the other hand, probably buys hundreds at a time and has had an existing account for years.

 

Is this me just being supportive? I've been accused of much worse things. But I really did run through actual numbers.

 

This isn't going to escalate into a war over a hat, is it? If so, then I'm totally and completely sorry and just maybe I'll buy you a hat (if and when the price comes down).

[trackbiker]

ski:

I believe you on the prices you got.

After the delay in the closing the new owners must be running around like a bunch of one armed wallpaper hangers trying to get ready for this season!

I'm sure that the caps will be on sale in March anyway!

I appreciate the information that you have provided to keep us all up to date on the progress of the sale and can't wait to hear more about the progress they are making with the snomaking, etc.

Also, last year you were very informative when I posted a cocky question about what was going on at Montage. As a result of your posts, my son and I skied there last Pres. Day Wknd., had a great time, avoided the crowds we would have experienced at other areas, and; most importantly had a chance to see the potential of the mountain.

Let's all hope for a lot of snow this year, or at least some cold weather to make it, and successful first year Sno Mountain.

[riderossi]

ski:

 

Let's all hope for a lot of snow this year, or at least some cold weather to make it, and successful first year Sno Mountain.

 

Sorry no photos today, i didn't want to bear the rain right before i went to dinner.

[Ski]

Hey, Track, you have to forgive this weird euphoria that's set in among a lot of locals. We chose our vacation home because of the proximity to Sno, then ended up living here full-time when my 6 yr old was born. Ski areas aren't saved the way Montage was saved; they just die. I lived 10 minutes from Bell Mountain when it closed...and I still called Mount Tom home when it shut down.

 

 

I drove over to Sno today in an effort to avoid my in-laws, but every gate was locked, including a 4-wheel-only back entrance down by Geisinger. The heavy fog had really set in around 1pm, which made it amazingly quiet. You could almost sense what almost happened to our home hill...by closing, it wouldn't have effected very many people, but it would have hit those few very hard.

 

Instead, there is a new era...a time when the ski area will have it's greatest days ever. Jeez, it's almost a good thing that they aren't able to do everything at once; we are used to so little and have such low expectations, that a new lift, new guns, and new trails would have just been too much (eh, well, I'm totally exagerating, but you get the idea).

 

And I'm definitely buying you a moose hat when they go on sale!

[Papasteeze]

If they did pay the prices in your quote above, they need to find someone else to purchase their merchandise.

Denis Carlson Jr.: Mr. Carlson's son helped with the logo and branding work.

 

They're already behind schedule, through no fault of their own, and they need to draw new people to the mountain.

 

You would think that they would give the hats to the people that attended the meetings to help get the word out. Or maybe they just got them. Seems to me that they have had plenty of time to figure out a marketing plan. Stickers, hats, T-shirts, hoodies and sweats, aren't those the standards for ski resort regalia?

 

 

The only thing i care about is snow on the slopes.

 

Dude, for the sake of the long term success, you should care about what they are doing to stay afloat. It really strikes me as weird the more I look into this on why the marketing seems to be missing. Certainly back in the summer when they talking about snow guns in time for opeing they were thinking about advertising..

 

 

Ha, I'm with riderossi on this one...

 

Someone in marketing took a shot at a number and probably had to keep within a budget of a few hundred dollars.

 

Someone in marketing? Marketing seems to be totally missing. Aren't baseball hats of this nature called "gimmes"? I have probably a hundred or more that have been given to me from contractors 1/10th the asset size of sno.. It doesn't make sense to charge so much. There is no profit if they don't sell any. Besides, I thought they were in the ski business not the hat business. I am surprised to only see a hat in thier store, they have had a lot of extra time due to plan and implement thier marketing.

 

 

Let's all hope for a lot of snow this year, or at least some cold weather to make it, and successful first year Sno Mountain.

 

WORD!!!!!!!!

 

added this point from a newspaper article to end this post.

 

Denis Carlson Jr.: Mr. Carlson's son helped with the logo and branding work.

[Ski]

Rob, go visit the second shelf of your medicine cabinet.

[Papasteeze]

Rob, go visit the second shelf of your medicine cabinet.

 

Why? the ATM machine for one of those hats isn't in there...

[Old Geezer]

Dude, for the sake of the long term success, you should care about what they are doing to stay afloat. It really strikes me as weird the more I look into this on why the marketing seems to be missing.

There's more than the marketing that is weird about this deal. If Ski, or anyone else, can point out why a company with no experience operating ski areas, and investing less in the ski facilities, as compared to a company with experience running ski hills and willing to invest a lot more $$$ in the skiing, makes it better off for skiers and the skiing. This is based on the last time I read the numbers, (and these could be wrong, so correct 'em if they are):

 

Sno Mountain

[Sno Mountain Skier]

Sno Mountain

[riderossi]

There's more than the marketing that is weird about this deal. If Ski, or anyone else, can point out why a company with no experience operating ski areas, and investing less in the ski facilities, as compared to a company with experience running ski hills and willing to invest a lot more $$$ in the skiing, makes it better off for skiers and the skiing. This is based on the last time I read the numbers, (and these could be wrong, so correct 'em if they are):

 

Sno Mountain