rideordie7 Posted December 14, 2006 Report Posted December 14, 2006 Now, let's either end the bashing of BB and focus on helping them or petition them to bring back PL, because Jesse assured us that nothing was going to change and they are still committed to the park. Where is our weekly update and video of this weeks improvements? Just a polite reminder: I am with you on this Papa. If they are so committed, where are the updated pics and vids on their website? Start the new thread.
librider Posted December 14, 2006 Report Posted December 14, 2006 word on the street is they were let go because they started calling too many shots and started messing with snow guns.
Papasteeze Posted December 14, 2006 Report Posted December 14, 2006 word on the street is they were let go because they started calling too many shots and started messing with snow guns. lead, follow or get the hell out of the way...
librider Posted December 14, 2006 Report Posted December 14, 2006 lead, follow or get the hell out of the way... what?
Papasteeze Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 what? Think about it. You either lead, you follow, or you get out of others way. It is a philosophical way to live. Park Logic are leaders....
xkinkrider03x Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 (edited) Alright. so to you guys who have said that the park doesnt get built off of two people... The PL guys are the ones who construct all the jibs, and mountain creek shows, that they know how to set them up. It takes a good rail to complete the nice setup. Many resorts have the nice flat rails and stuff, but what ruins it would have to be the setups. They are nice rails, but without the addition of the setup, they are nothing. PL had both of those going and they really know how to construct flow and variety filled parks. PL were the ones out there who are telling people how to set things up, Park Crew is just out there maintaining it. I know a bunch of Park Crew guys from Boulder are on these boards, but it is true. I've seen you guys defend yourselves numerous times, but they originally are your models, as they started the craze at MC. MC pretty much has the perfect setups(in the mornings anyways, minus all the crappy landings in the middle of the day) for the area and every resort has tried to model it. So really, the PL guys, are yet again, who you are modeling after... The setups, as realized in pictures, were almost identical to those at mountain creek. Mountain creek has had the best parks, for the past few years, and this was boulders chance to beat them. Mountain Creek has made the transworld top 10 parks for their jibs and such, BEFORE they even had the named, Jiblab! That has to say something. With a place like BB, they dont exactly have the vert. of Mtn Creek, but they definitely had the potential to beat them with their jibs/park setup with their groomers and the addition of PL. if you take notice, most park oriented resorts, dont have the vertical. I think this was the perfect oppurtunity for BB to turn themselves into something big and it was all screwed up! ***I know I dont make a name for myself on these boards to often, I used to post a lot, but I know what Im talking about when it comes to parks. I am no amateur. I've been to countless places and know how things should be setup. I also am not on the boards often because I know live out in Arizona, but PA is my hometown, I would have loved to see the little mom and pop mountain, JFBB to make a name for themselves...but nahh.. I was stoked about the PL thing and I'm not even there about it. Im still excited to come see whats up over winter break, as I'll be back in pA. Edited December 15, 2006 by xkinkrider03x
bbski Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 Note. I am not BB management. BB management has been quiet about this because it is buisness. I do happen to know some things that occured, but I have no idea if they were related to the break of the contract or not. Like I said, this info is all secondhand from employees or directly observed. I am only posting it because BB seems to be bearing the brunt of this forum and now with the petition I think it should be said. PL did wreck a brand new park bully groomer leaving it stranded on the snow for several days with 3 wheels missing through inept operation. BB staff reparied it where it was (it couldn't be moved) the day the parts arrived. PL also promised the opening of the merry widow park last saturday. Despite keeping MW closed on friday to build it they still left early and did not complete the park. Not only did they not put a single feature on the park, they did not even finish grooming it. BB staff discovered this on sat morning and groomed it out so that it would be open for the weekend. And no, PL did not go to JF either. I don't know anything else but there may be more. So lets stop lamenting the move that BB or PL made to seperate and start looking for ways to make BB park even better. Those guys did build nice jibs. However, the main thing BB has been lacking is a $$ committment to park until now. Given the raw materials that PL was given, any weldor could build those. BB already has some of the best grooming equipment and great operators. Now with Peak and the committement to snowmaking we are looking like we will have a great season. So we need to continue to support the push to improve freestyle terrain by making management know our interest. Maybe someone could voluneteer to make videos and photos and update them online. I'm sure that they would be able to compensate you somehow. Good park scene, which is what some are lamenting the possible loss of, is generated by the riders not the builders.
Papasteeze Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 Good park scene, which is what some are lamenting the possible loss of, is generated by the riders not the builders. I don't need to preface my qualifications to say that statement is wrong... but it is very wrong... Every great Park that we have been involved with, has a builder who is outfront and center generating and creating "the scene" Big Boulder has lacked this in the past years. Whether it was Kieth from Shawnee, Andy at BC, Joe at RT, The Blue Crew, Doug at High North, Ken at COC and Shawn at BB - they all have one thing in common. They generate "the scene" during the off season by talking to the serious riders through many mediums, whether it be forum and web interaction to cutters camp and resort schooling. The serious riders get stoked based on thier input and then tell thier friends and so forth and so on. The converse is true. Great big camelback is mute and so is thier park. They are on a different path with focus on the USASA program and quite frankly (search the camelback forum) that program was hated on hard by the core group of park riders who post here. They do not have a park worth getting stoked on. The scene? What Scene? (and I was rooting for them until I went and personally saw what thier builders made this summer) Montage? Ryan Neptune? where is he? The word on the street is that this guy openly disrespects park skiers. nothing will happen there and if it does, it will be too late in the season to sell any tickets which is why you all are in business, correct? The Scene, What Scene? they have other issues to deal with. maybe things will change this summer. Break downs on opening days?... hahaha... They happen, yeah tillers rusted solid, ungreased or untorqued wheels, hydaulic leaks... etc etc that should be on maintenance's shoulders in my opinion. Now with all that said, I totally agree that everyone who calls BB home should keep an open mind and be supportive during the transition. I intend on doing everything I can to help including grabbing a rake if the groomers break again (if they will let me) hahaha..
parkbuilder Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 (edited) Respect the builders who are in charge now. Nothing can change what has happened. Help the crew by giving your opinions and thoughts so that they will be able to adapt and perform. If they do not want to hear input... well then you are on your own haha. good luck on your season guys, im praying for new snow down there... and yea even up here at killy to! Rails to Riches tommorow 5pm under the lights. KSA Edited December 15, 2006 by parkbuilder
ParkLogic Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 In professional courtesy I originally wished to remain quiet, but I refuse to have an anonymous "employee" of JFBB trashtalk us with untruths in attempt to save face at a resort that is grossly mismanaged by an incompetent, underqualified and immature mountain "manager". I explain below: PL did wreck a brand new park bully groomer leaving it stranded on the snow for several days with 3 wheels missing through inept operation. BB staff reparied it where it was (it couldn't be moved) the day the parts arrived. Big Boulder lacks a trained Pisten Bully mechanic. period. A 'mechanic' from outside the snow industry was brougt in exactly one week before the opening date and the machine was not properly overhauled prior to the season. Collectively, Parklogic has been operating snowcats for a total of 15 years, this mechanic worked on one for only ONE WEEK. The result of this breakdown is directly a result of a machine not properly put together. Within the "tracks" is a set of wheels and cogs. One morning the 2 front wheels of this beloved machine completely FELL OFF the machine as a result of not being propertly torqued. This is the alleged breakdown that has been blamed. Its pretty lame to try and save face this way by spreading mistuths and blaming PL. PL also promised the opening of the merry widow park last saturday. Despite keeping MW closed on friday to build it they still left early and did not complete the park. This is only 1/2 true. ParkLogic did promise to have the MW Park open, but only based on the promise by the mountain "manager" that our ParkBully machine would be complete at 9AM prior to starting the build. Other machines, that are decades old, were being used to frontline groom and instead of us getting a machine at 9am as promised, we got it at 5pm leaving insufficient time to complete the build up to our standards. This is fact. Given the raw materials that PL was given, any weldor could build those. Any welder? Welder's weld. Fabricators build. Then why is there nearly 2 dozen jibs behind the BB maintenance yard that are unusable and unsafe? Improper fabrication and SEVERAL jibs that were run over by snowcats is not the sign of a solid program. Good park scene, which is what some are lamenting the possible loss of, is generated by the riders not the builders. If true, then explain this: Upon our arrival we met several locals that admittedly enjoyed coming to BB, but would rather go to BC because of the more prominent park scene and ALL of the people we met welcomed change including park riding employees. I may be dilusional, but building moto jumps and installing 40ft long broken, warped flat rails aren't really whats 'in' these days. "If you build it, they will come". period. Thank you everyone for your support, this will be our last post for a while. In closing, to summarize all of this bantering the most simple and honest way possible, we didn't leave, we were wrongfully ousted!
rideordie7 Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 Park Logic, thanks for chiming in. Not that it will definitely do anything, but I sent an email to Peak Resorts stating my displeasure. Maybe we can't get PL back, but maybe we can get "so called manager" fired. Cause obviously he doesn't have the skiers and riders as the number 1 priority. Here is the link: http://www.peakresorts.com/contactpeakresorts.asp?id=1
Justo8484 Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 hahaha shawn you just shat down boulder's throat. amen to that. and everyone thought us blue locals were crazy in the past when we've said boulder is disorganized and poorly run... i hope for their sake they can pull everything together and put out a decent park for the rest of this season, they're under pressure for sure now.
Ride the eastern ice Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 ..... installing 40ft long broken, warped flat rails...... Hahaha, It was straight at one time but two years ago someone carelessly drug it with a cat . Guys, If nothing else, thanks for the smooth jibs. Hopefully we can get you to come back. I myself have taken a few trips to MC for the park. It's a haul for me and MC's snow really sucks, but the park made the mountain. I was hoping you guys would be here long enough to make a rainbow rail like you had at creek last year but I guess JFBB customers paid more this year to get 2 less. Don't get me wrong, the guy's that were the prior to PL are great guys buy you guys "fabricate" great jibs and a more free flowing park. So the question is, where are you guys going now, I'll make a trip at least a couple times a year.
Ride the eastern ice Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 Big Boulder lacks a trained Pisten Bully mechanic. period. A 'mechanic' from outside the snow industry was brougt in exactly one week before the opening date and the machine was not properly overhauled prior to the season. Collectively, Parklogic has been operating snowcats for a total of 15 years, this mechanic worked on one for only ONE WEEK. The result of this breakdown is directly a result of a machine not properly put together. Within the "tracks" is a set of wheels and cogs. One morning the 2 front wheels of this beloved machine completely FELL OFF the machine as a result of not being propertly torqued. This is the alleged breakdown that has been blamed. Its pretty lame to try and save face this way by spreading mistuths and blaming PL. I checked into it, and yes improperly installed wheels and wheels that are undertorqued WILL result in track failer. Apearently this is a common problem. and , although it is a pointless mute point, PB now come with XM radio now, go figure.
xkinkrider03x Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 That was quite the rant, and I completely respect it. Glad you chimed in!
Jody Posted December 15, 2006 Report Posted December 15, 2006 Yea they might have gotten SOME coverage, maybe a picture or two in mags. But bb does not have the vertical for it. Pros would not come to BB becuase they have some good jibs and a couple big jumps. They would go to a mtn like Mammoth or Park city where the get 10x the vert, just as good jibs and most likly bigger jumps and have high speed quads and six packs and even gondolas. When BB has next to no vert. compared to these mtns and slow chairs. Just my 2 cents Sorry i was just scanning over and this kinda pissed me off, I'm not saying NEPA is the next winter olympic contender here, just that even a little coverage and more DEMO days, competitions, everything like that would bring awesome morale and riders to the poconos but without a recognized park team its hard to be like hey our generic locals (no offence) made a sweet park..... just like anyone can make a car but would you buy it? p.s. - i wasn't going to go to "sno" but thats what is going to happen until something cool goes down up there
AtomicSkier Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 lead, follow or get the hell out of the way... PL lead, now they're "the hell out of the way" Great point Rob. I agree with FGT. Just because you're the best, doesn't mean you indispensible. Look at TO. He thought he was indispensible, and did whatever he wanted, and now he's gone and someone else's problem. TO is a great football player, but he also has a boss, and when you don't respect your superiors, you get fired. PL guys can do great things, but they don't own the mountain. They have bosses, and people to report to. Their job was to revamp the parks, not play with snowguns or anything else. They had their place at JFBB, and apparently, they grew out of their space. I know you have this new schooler "rebel" attitude Rob, but when you start stepping on the wrong people's toes, things will happen, regardless if you're Shawn Orrechio or some cafeteria worker. I'm not disrespecting Shawn, he's a great guy, but JFBB is a buisness, and regardless of what they might provide to the customer, if you don't follow the way the business is run as an employee, then they're going to make you "get the hell out of the way".
AtomicSkier Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 A perfect example Rob: You. You worked for PASR, you don't own the place, you thought you did, you stepped on our toes, now you don't work for us, regardless of what good you where doing. Pretty much what happened with PL and JFBB
DHarrisburg Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 (edited) They have bosses, and people to report to. Their job was to revamp the parks, not play with snowguns or anything else. Unfortunately the two often go hand in hand. I think it's pretty clear that PL got a raw deal and I think you're arguing to the counter just to rile up Rob Edited December 16, 2006 by DHarrisburg
AtomicSkier Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 Unfortunately the two often go hand in hand. I think it's pretty clear that PL got a raw deal and I think you're arguing to the counter just to rile up Rob No, I find flaw in Robs thinking, and my main point was against 99% of the people who posted here, forgetting that JFBB is first and foremost a business with employees.
Ski Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 Unfortunately the two often go hand in hand. I think it's pretty clear that PL got a raw deal and I think you're arguing to the counter just to rile up Rob Although that's a possibility, it doesn't really make sense. How would it be in BB's best interest to fire anyone that has name recognition and that provides a great end product? At the risk of riling up anyone, I think Jeffy is probably right. And as far as the 'lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way' thing goes, that would be fine if PL OWNED their own park.
AtomicSkier Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 Although that's a possibility, it doesn't really make sense. How would it be in BB's best interest to fire anyone that has name recognition and that provides a great end product? At the risk of riling up anyone, I think Jeffy is probably right. And as far as the 'lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way' thing goes, that would be fine if PL OWNED their own park.
poop Posted December 16, 2006 Report Posted December 16, 2006 the other day i was riding by some park crew and they were saying how they needed more stickers to cover up all the park logic shit... i laughed so hard and couldnt believe that shit.
DHarrisburg Posted December 17, 2006 Report Posted December 17, 2006 How would it be in BB's best interest to fire anyone that has name recognition and that provides a great end product? PL already designed and fabricated all the features and I'm sure they played a major role in training the current staff on grooming. The "hard" part was already done and there was no contracts signed for the season, apparently. I still don't know the reason why they were let go but I can't imagine it wasn't something that could have been settled a different way.
Papasteeze Posted December 17, 2006 Report Posted December 17, 2006 I'm not disrespecting Shawn, he's a great guy, but JFBB is a buisness, and regardless of what they might provide to the customer, if you don't follow the way the business is run as an employee, then they're going to make you "get the hell out of the way". You worked for PASR, you don't own the place, you thought you did, you stepped on our toes, now you don't work for us, regardless of what good you where doing. Pretty much what happened with PL and JFBB This is really ironic coming from someone who washes cars and just got out of high school and lives at home with a country club life style. What do you know of any business or managing employees Jeff? Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Call me jeff, when you have a real job, that you earned and let me know how your adult life is going. It is also ironic that you guys wanted me to market this place, but guess what? You didn't like the way I was doing it or what I said needed to be done, so now you still sit with essentially no marketing, no snow perks from a powerful medium, basically just a hobby which is cool!!!!! I wonder if PL was challenged the same way. "we want to be the next Snow Park NZ, can you do it?" BB apparently didn't like the way they were doing it and.. Unfortunately the two often go hand in hand. I think it's pretty clear that PL got a raw deal and I think you're arguing to the counter just to rile up Rob Both points are very very correct. Most great and flamboyant leaders end up self destructing and typcially bring about thier demise by reasons of turmoil. Jeff knows that I rarely post on weekends. He also knows that I did not appreciate having my son dragged into a thread I made. This is probably his futile attempt at what, retaliation? No, I find flaw in Robs thinking, and my main point was against 99% of the people who posted here, forgetting that JFBB is first and foremost a business with employees. That point has not been overlooked. Here again this is a board of snow lovers. Not ski resort employees. 99% of the people who post here probably do not know or care about the details of ski resort management. While I think I would have supported PL for one season - I do understand thier decision and will continue to support BB because I am convinced after what I saw yesterday that it will be the sickest Park in our area. did I mention they mid day groomed yesterday and they probably blew snow last night and that they have real jumps and jibs set up everywhere? And as far as the 'lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way' thing goes, that would be fine if PL OWNED their own park. This one is tough. Excellent managers, owners, CEO's hire experts in thier fields to run departments. BB's intent is apparently to have the best park in the region, however it was PL who was saying that. PL ran the place as it was thier own, there is nothing the matter with that as long as it was explained to the other employees that that was what was going to happen and to follow thier lead. I still don't know the reason why they were let go but I can't imagine it wasn't something that could have been settled a different way. how many licks does it take get to the center of a tootsie pop? Too bad we couldn't have run 2 separate paths... BB is looking really great and the fact that were readying the guns again last night plus I HAVE NEVER SEEN MID DAY GROOMING ON A JUMP RUN - things have and are seriously progressing there. To anyone who doesn't believe me. visit there today and check it out.
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