Water Cooler?

[method9455]

If we remember back to the start of the season, one of the reasons BC didn't make snow early was the temperature of their water. That turned out to be a costly problem, because they couldn't get enough down to be open for the season. A lot of places have water cooling towers and pumps for this purpose. I have no idea about the system at Bear Creek, but a water cooler might be a worthwhile investment this summer. All those new guns are worthless if you have to wait for the water to cool.

 

http://www.ratnik.com/wcs.html

 

I'm not even sure if a snowmaking specific one would be necessary. At a lot of the large condo complexes they build in Florida now, the ponds have these huge fountains almost everywhere. Put a few of those in the pond and run them during the cold temperatures, it would cool the water down a lot more than just having it sit there. It would also prevent ice from building if the winter where actually cold, which would help cool the water since ice is like an insolating blanket on the water once it forms.

[Shadows]

fountains are so the water stays clean, it keeps algae and shit from forming. it might make it colder, but i doubt it

well, apparently i am wrong haha. my bad

 

o shit, i used to live in parsippany, didnt know you lived there.

my address was randolph, but i lived near gracedale (i think thats it) that mental hospital?

Edited January 6, 2007 by Shadows

[BC-Mark]

Method, thanks for the info. We looked into a cooling tower several years back and concluded that it was not necessary given that our average water temperature at the start of snowmaking season is typically 38 to 40 degrees. We did install fountains in the pond we draw from for snowmaking. They are thermostatically controlled to operate when the ambient temperature is lower than the water temperature. In the warmer than average winters we have encountered prior to this year they have done the job but this year we just haven't had many time periods where the air was cooler than the water.

 

We have a meeting on the 17th with Ratnik and SMI to discuss options for greater production in marginal temperatures. We worked with Ratnik and SMI to design our current system that allows opening the entire mountain with the exception of tubing in 80 hours of snowmaking at a 28F wetbulb. We now have a new benchmark for the worst possible scenario so the new goal is opening the mountain in 40 hours of snowmaking at a 28F wetbulb.

 

Items for discussion at the meeting are increasing pumping capacity and cooling water with a cooling tower. We currently have a design and permit for enlarging the pond you drive by on the way and installing a new pumphouse to accomodate up to 4 more pumps if necessary. We will have to overcome a lack of available power from Met-Ed. We currently consume all the power they can deliver so we are going to be investigating generation.

 

Thanks again.

[method9455]

Method, thanks for the info. We looked into a cooling tower several years back and concluded that it was not necessary given that our average water temperature at the start of snowmaking season is typically 38 to 40 degrees. We did install fountains in the pond we draw from for snowmaking. They are thermostatically controlled to operate when the ambient temperature is lower than the water temperature. In the warmer than average winters we have encountered prior to this year they have done the job but this year we just haven't had many time periods where the air was cooler than the water.

 

We have a meeting on the 17th with Ratnik and SMI to discuss options for greater production in marginal temperatures. We worked with Ratnik and SMI to design our current system that allows opening the entire mountain with the exception of tubing in 80 hours of snowmaking at a 28F wetbulb. We now have a new benchmark for the worst possible scenario so the new goal is opening the mountain in 40 hours of snowmaking at a 28F wetbulb.

 

Items for discussion at the meeting are increasing pumping capacity and cooling water with a cooling tower. We currently have a design and permit for enlarging the pond you drive by on the way and installing a new pumphouse to accomodate up to 4 more pumps if necessary. We will have to overcome a lack of available power from Met-Ed. We currently consume all the power they can deliver so we are going to be investigating generation.

 

Thanks again.

 

No problem, I find the engineering behind it all very interesting. I was just up at Mount Snow and they have quite a few diesel powered Ingersol Rand air compressors, bypassing the electricity problem. Not sure if that is a great solution considering the price of fuel is ever increasing. Forty hours would be an incredibly short amount of time. If the wetbulb goes down to say 25, how much faster does production go?

[BC-Mark]

If we get 25F wetbulb, production increases by 15 to 20%.

 

Given the potential for lost revenue, the cost of diesel generation is relatively small. What we really have to consider is the timeline for procuring a generator of the size we will require and the EPA regulations for operating a generator. On initial inspection of the regulations it appears that we can run up to 1000 hours a year before we move to another class of regulation/permitting. If that is the case we will be fine given that we average between 400 and 600 hours of snowmaking per year.

 

If we get the conditions we will make as much snow as possible and attempt to prolong the season. Let's hppe Accuweather is correct for the first time this year!

[ThinkSnow]

Mark, Thanks a ton to you and the BC staff for posting this info. I also find the science behind it very cool and don't think a lot of people realize what goes into running the resort. Things like having to deal with the EPA and stuff is something I doubt people ever think about (I know I don't)

[YummerzZz]

Mark,like I stated in another prior post(along with other's now),it would be a excellent idea for a water cooler at BC.I also have often thought about all the return snowmaking water's electricity generating potential.Kind of like a turbocharger on a diesel or gas engine.You would be using wastewaster(exhaust) to spin a generator(turbocharger).This might be something to talk to Ratnik or SMI about too.Now with the advent of ULSD(Ultra low sulfur diesel),it has become a lot less polluting to operate ULSD compatible diesel motor's.Another thing to think about,York Snow make's the Waterstick snowgun that require's no electricity at all,they can really pound it out if you will have the cold water and temp's in the future.

Edited January 8, 2007 by YummerzZz

[snorovr]

If we get 25F wetbulb, production increases by 15 to 20%.

 

Given the potential for lost revenue, the cost of diesel generation is relatively small.

 

Killington has a bunch of generators down at their Snowshed base. I don't remember seeing them before but I'm sure they've had them in the past. I didn't realize you guys sucked up all the power available down there.

 

Let's hppe Accuweather is correct for the first time this year!

 

AMEN!!! I'm almost tempted to switch back to weather.com or wunderground.com.

 

Mark, Thanks a ton to you and the BC staff for posting this info. I also find the science behind it very cool and don't think a lot of people realize what goes into running the resort. Things like having to deal with the EPA and stuff is something I doubt people ever think about (I know I don't)

 

Huge props for being so involved on the boards. You guys are keeping a ton of customers who would definitely go elsewhere if they didn't see the active involvment of a management who cares.

[dwnhlldav]

Killington has a bunch of generators down at their Snowshed base. I don't remember seeing them before but I'm sure they've had them in the past. I didn't realize you guys sucked up all the power available down there.

AMEN!!! I'm almost tempted to switch back to weather.com or wunderground.com.

Huge props for being so involved on the boards. You guys are keeping a ton of customers who would definitely go elsewhere if they didn't see the active involvment of a management who cares.

 

 

As an aside, and I'm sure I'll get balsted for this, but I'd much prefer to see Bear look into alternative energy sources, Like Wind and Solar. You have a lot of roof space available. Obviously this won't meet all your needs, but my need to ski is not more so then my need to see the places I frequent take a green approach to operations. IMHO installing Diesel generators is a poor choice for a business that must rely on the global average temperature to survive.

 

This is important enough to me that it would greatly influence my decision to continue skiing at bear.

 

Now, running the Generators on recycled Vegi oil, that may be an acceptable compromise.

 

 

 

Everyone else: Feel free to diagree with me but please don't turn this thread into a global warming; fact or fiction debate. This is my opinion and for Mark's info. If you want to try and explain to me how global warming is not happening, start a new thread, but we all know that many of us disagree and it'll go no where.

Edited January 8, 2007 by dwnhlldav

[YummerzZz]

Now, running the Generators on recycled Vegi oil, that may be an acceptable compromise.

Everyone else: Feel free to diagree with me but please don't turn this thread into a global warming; fact or fiction debate. This is my opinion and for Mark's info. If you want to try and explain to me how global warming is not happening, start a new thread, but we all know that many of us disagree and it'll go no where.

 

Good looking on the bio-diesel dwnhlldav.Imagine all the leftover veggie oil from the deep fryer's up in the lodge to power generator's.FREEBIE!!!

[method9455]

I agree with you on the power thing, it would be nice if it COULD be solar or wind powered, but thats not really possible right now. When all those western resorts say they are totally Wind Powered, it means they bought wind power credits, but in reality their power still comes from the main grid that is being generated by hydro, coal, fossil fuel, nuclear, whatever. Wind generation on site wouldn't be large enough, plus the times when you get maximum energy production (high wind) is when you have lowest snow making efficiency (snow blowing into the woods). Solar would work, except there is no technology that stores energy efficiently enough so that you can make power in the day and use it at night, battery technology just isn't there.

 

I agree with Yummerz, there is definitely a lot of potential energy being lost when the water rolls down the hill (melting) and the extra water that is dumped out the bottom of the pipes the whole time.

 

Also, it wouldn't work for most mountains, but if they had a reservoir at the top of the mountain big enough to hold the water for the night, you could have solar panels pump water up during the day to refill it, saving energy costs because the guns would be gravity fed. Combine that with the more efficient fan guns, and you could save a lot of money so that you could spend more hours making snow per year. (Although it looks like we're short on hours not budget this year.)

[BC-Mark]

This is a great thread and I appreciate all the input.

 

I began exploring the feasibility of installing a 300kW wind turbine about 2 months ago. We are still in the early stages and assuming I am able to show potential 3 to 5 year ROI it is several years off at best. The other isssue is instaneous peak demand that the wind turbine would not address without copious amounts of storage that becomes cost prohibitive. We are also talking about buying wind credits and should actually have a proposal on Monday.

 

In the limited research I have done into solar it seems that you are looking at something like a 30 year ROI. This was based on a PV system for my house but I believe the costs for a residential vs. commercial system are pretty similar.

 

Bio-diesel is an option for running the generators but you run into a couple issues. First, it is renewable to some degree but requires more than one kJ of petroleum energy to produce one kJ of biodiesel energy. Second is the lack of a readily available supply in our area.

 

Waste oil is a good option and Tim Wright, our vehicle mechanic, has been a big proponent of using it as a fuel source.

 

As for the York waterstick, it requires very high pressure water and the use of Snowmax. We have experimented with one and have found they are decent guns at wetbuld less than 22F but anything above that and they are not all they are cracked up to be.

 

There is an option for our current guns to boost performance at 27F to 28F wetbulb. It involves changing out the 5hp compressors for 10hp compressors. To date we have always opted for the 5hp compressors given our electrical cap and they have served us well. A topic of discussion on the 17th will revolve around changing the compressors and sacrificing on the number of guns we are able to run at once in exchange for more production from the guns we are able to run.

 

Thanks for the healthy debate.

[Shadows]

the award for best resorts with customer relations goes to bb and bc. good job guys

[BC-Mark]

I forgot to mention, we did do some research in the hydro-turbine in our downlines for the snowmaking system. We found that Aspen is doing it already and have had some success. It will be discussed on the 17th.

 

We have also looked at putting in a 10,000,000 gallon reservoir running parallel to the top portion of Timberline starting a the mountain hut and running roughly 2/3 of the way to the top of B lift. We have designs and the additional head pressure would allow us to run at least 2 trails on the back side of the mountain and save electricity on pumping during peak operating times for snowmaking. It would drain less than 3 acres so we would definitely have to fill it manually. I will ask our electrician to see if a pump capable of refreshing it can operate on a solar system.

[method9455]

I wouldn't hold your breath on current solar power output. As you said with the 30 year return on investment, they aren't all that practical at the large scale commercial level in our area right now. In the desert of Arizona, current commercial output is feasible but here not quite. On the plus side, the bleeding edge of performance in solar technology is orders of magnitude higher than what is available right now. Give it a decade and solar power will be much more feasible for applications like this.

 

It really is great to see that you recognize the problems your mountain has, and that you are addressing them. Marginal temperatures are a fact of life, and you can't miss the Christmas week, no matter what the cost of snowmaking prior. At our shop, 90% of people ski their first day during that week. The impression of the conditions up there basically sets their mind as to what kind of winter it is. I find almost every person I talk to has no idea what the actual conditions are like at the local mountains, but an impression based on what the weather is here and what their first day was like. Even if there is significant melting, every snowmaking window has to be taken advantage of early - even if it means less snowmaking budget come february and march. Truthfully this isn't what we all want to hear, because it means less snow in the end. But by giving the majority of customers the impression that it is a cold winter on their first day out, many more lift tickets (and gear) will be sold, which allows the mountain to turn a profit. If they turn a profit, they can invest in more of this technology we are talking about, to make it better for everyone.

 

Lets just be glad that there BC, BB, and Blue are dumping the money into snowmaking that is necessary to work with the current warm winters we are getting. I feel like Mountain Creek might succumb to the VV/GG problems in the 80's with poor snowmaking, Shawnee dropped the ball this year, and Camelback didn't sound too hot either. I don't think this year will bankrupt anyone, but the last two years have shown that any mountain serious about being fully open has to make snow early and often. Once you have trails open it is easier to maintain than trying to open them from scratch.

 

I just can't believe we haven't had any snow at all yet, a foot of snow on the region would do a lot for conditions and the publics impression of what this year is at the mountains.

[method9455]

Check this out:

 

Storing solar power for night time use:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

 

Instead of solar cells, using a mirror to heat a liquid, to power a turbine at night

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower

 

I also found that current commercial systems run at 7-15% convergance rate, meaning they turn 7-15% of the sunlight's potential energy into electricty. The current highest output is 45% in the lab.

 

The solar tower is also under development.

 

Bottom line, give it a decade and solar power will be come a lot more feasible.

[racer139]

Mark, sounds like your most pressing problem is power. Without which you won't be able to implement any of the really great ideas both you and everyone else has proposed. What's the downside of renting a whole bunch of diesels and supplementing what you get from your power supplier? Once you had that in place and all the requisite electrical work, then you could do the other stuff. I'd rent the generators and upgrade the guns immediately. The gun upgrade would be a great permanent investment and you wouldn't be locking into the generators, just renting to buy time.

 

Also, didn't get a clear picture from your post, do you use Snomax or something similar? If not why?

[YummerzZz]

Mark,if you guy's do build that reservior,how about a 2-way hydro-static stationary/floating WP?Just use a sno-cat to fill it or pump from it.Just like a hydro-static coupler used as backup motivation on a high-speed quad.You could probally even hook a genny up that way too somewhere.And,I know it sound's crude,but dropping snow into the water is a easy way to raise up the water level,at the same time it cool's the water off,again please nobody ask me how I found this all out......

[dwnhlldav]

Mark, sounds like your most pressing problem is power. Without which you won't be able to implement any of the really great ideas both you and everyone else has proposed. What's the downside of renting a whole bunch of diesels and supplementing what you get from your power supplier? Once you had that in place and all the requisite electrical work, then you could do the other stuff. I'd rent the generators and upgrade the guns immediately. The gun upgrade would be a great permanent investment and you wouldn't be locking into the generators, just renting to buy time.

 

Also, didn't get a clear picture from your post, do you use Snomax or something similar? If not why?

 

 

I can't really think of a place where they'd be hidden from the public and still accessible.

 

Noise and visual pollution would be a large problem from them.

 

Mark, Glad to hear you guys have looked into the feasibility of the alternatives.

[method9455]

At Mount Snow there are at least two dozen SUV size diesel powered air compressors, just sitting in the parking lot. They have pipe for the air system that just pops up in the back of the parking lot, and the compressors are on trailers and are just put next to a pipe and connected by a 4 foot hose. They ran them all day and it didn't bother anyone, I think most customers would want to see that there is snow being made rather than looking for quiet. Realize it is loud as hell when the guns are firing anyway so, its not like the loudest noise on the hill would be the generators.

[J money]

i have a couple questions for this topic being that were talking, what sounds to be billions of dollars of investments to bear creek. first off what would be the most logical? After all there are like 4 possible ideas out there for increasing the amount of snow that would be able to be made in the shortest amount of time. how will affect our season passes and prices as far as the whole mountain? along with those questions as far as the length of the season will you guys blow snow untill the mountain cant handle anymore snow or are you just going to blow untill the profits are right for the year

[boblikescats]

This is one of the more technical posts I've seen here in a while....and I love it!

 

 

If you're interested in some pumped storage tidbits then check this out:

 

http://www.exeloncorp.com/ourcompanies/pow...ge_facility.htm

 

 

I have done some work here as a contractor.....very cool to see.

 

 

As for solar power... the storage and efficiency of the available technology along with the current energy density of available battery systems just aren't here yet, and the cost is rediculous.

 

 

Diesel generators all the way!

 

 

Edit: As for cost increases, they still have to stay competitive.

Edited January 8, 2007 by boblikescats

[tell_them_nothing]

I remember hearing something about a guy who made a snowgun that could make snow in above freezing temps. Like really really above freezing temps, I think I heard they made snow in July. Apparently it never went into use because it wasted so much water.

 

Im not sure if this is true. Maybe I thought about it and somehow it turned into something I heard in my mind, or something, I dunno.

 

Anyway, as making snow in July isnt really necessary (although it would be pretty cool) if there is any weight to this then could it be adapted to make snow in borderline and adverse temperature conditions? Like mid 30s through mid 40s. This just popped into my head when I was reading all the things Bear is thinking up to improve the mountain. If its even a little feasible then cool. If it was just something conjured out of the depths of my twisted imagination then forget I posted this. It too was then conjured out of the depths of my twisted imagination and so didnt exist in the first place.

[supertrooper12]

bear might want to look into making snow in july because i don't think they are gonna be open all winter

[method9455]

That was basically making snow in a controlled environment. It was the same technology as this, except they basically had a big silo that was refrigerated. The snow was made and came out the bottom where it was pushed around by snowcats. It allowed them to make snow for a tubing run all year. The same thing could be build pretty easily here, so that they could make snow at night during the winter at say 45 degree temperatures, and truck it to cover bare spots. Obviously you wouldn't cover the whole mountain that way. But if we look at the way some mountains are trucking snow around to cover bare spots, it could be useful. Or the mountain could just blow a big pile of snow in a shady spot, and cover it with a tarp prior to rain as a contingency pile for covering critical bare spots, and save a hell of a lot of money over a giant unsitely building.