"Radar Love" coming to a mountain near you

[ski911]

I am sure there have been a few instances of over zealous rangers busting people for straightlining a expert trail. I am also sure some of you "think" you are skiing in control, but, seriously, get a video of yourself and take a good look at what we see most of the time. We also recognize good skiers and talk with them about that also. If you feel like you are being singled out by rangers there is a good chance you dont look as good as you think you do.

As for my red coat, pocono shuffle, 5 mph, abilities....buzz me once, and I'll wait for you at the bottom with my pass removing device.

[method9455]

It doesn't matter if your on a race board, race skis or jet-powered snowblades. If you are on a trail that has a crowd, and your zipping by everyone and getting close or causeing the other people to be overly alarmed, we will speak with you and ask you to turn it down a notch or two.

Overly alarmed? So you'd rather worry about us alarming people as we ski in control than the actual safety of your patrons? Because if you worried about safety you would be a on a trail with danger - as in a terrain park, or a trail with a headwall and people sitting below it in a blind spot. Not a green trail where everyone is clearly visible.

 

As for the equipment question - the point stands. Boards aren't skis. Sure I can slow my stiff board down, but the only option there is to speed check, turns won't slow me down. So I can either stop and go down the whole damn trail, or I can do a lot of little turns, but it won't slow me down. I'll let you guess which option I'll choose.

 

Let the people in control go the speed we want to go. If I'm not near someone, and I'm going fast and in control but it happens to be on a green trail, what harm is that.

 

If you look "out of control" you will be warned and in some cases voided depending on severity.

 

Does this apply to out of control newbies in a terrain park?

No?

Then don't even think about taking my pass until you deal with that problem first. In the park I'm not getting overly alarmed when I see them as I'm airing over a jump, I'm about to crush their skull with a 4 foot long sword at 30 miles an hour.

 

Put the whistle back in your pocket and actually protect someone, just chill in the shack until we call you with the body of a 4 year old on the landing of a jump.

[ski911]

First of all, we are on every trail. Sometimes the more populated ones require more attention...duh. Don't get me started on the terrain park issues. If it where up to me, they would all be park pass, and checked at the entrance. Unfortunately, and I am sure this included you as you were learning, riders who want to learn park have to start somewhere too. I think they ought to be able to carve, and be able to handle all of the terrain at a mountain first (before park), but, it is a issue. Then there are the people, and there kids, that have no business in the park at all. I talk to them all the time and usually feel like I'm talking to a wall (kinda like on here sometimes).

Part of your park ettiquite is or should be, to help educate new riders (everybody's responsibility really). Oh, and here is some food for thought....who's fault do you think it is if you take air and land on someone? I hope you know a good lawyer.

[method9455]

Don't get me started on the terrain park issues. If it where up to me, they would all be park pass, and checked at the entrance.

 

Agreed

 

Unfortunately, and I am sure this included you as you were learning, riders who want to learn park have to start somewhere too.

Thats what a beginner park is for - see Mountain Creek, Stratton, Tremblant, et al.

 

I think they ought to be able to carve, and be able to handle all of the terrain at a mountain first (before park), but, it is a issue. Then there are the people, and there kids, that have no business in the park at all. I talk to them all the time and usually feel like I'm talking to a wall (kinda like on here sometimes).

 

I feel you, so often I've talked to kids, but more surprisingly, their parents, and their parents just don't care. I was explaining to one guy how his son was almost just hit and he was like, well he was having fun so ..... And I'm standing there explaining that his son almost got hit in the head with a sharp metal object at 30 miles an hour, and he has no comprehension of what that would do.

 

Part of your park ettiquite is or should be, to help educate new riders (everybody's responsibility really).

Thats for sure, although it is much easier at times when there are more experianced riders than not. When the mountain is fully open, and the park only has park rats in it, the newbies see how it should go with calling drops and stuff. When the parks are open and its full of people skiing through, they don't see the order.

 

Oh, and here is some food for thought....who's fault do you think it is if you take air and land on someone? I hope you know a good lawyer.

 

I'm not sure how it would stand in court, but I know whos fault it is - not mine. I'm not saying that because I don't take responsibility for myself. I'm saying that because you physically can't see the landings. Its not a matter of me jumping over a jump and saying fuck whos on the other side. It is a matter of me going into a jump and trusting that it is safe. When I ride with my girlfriend she goes before me and sees if its clear. However there is a huge problem with that, ESPECIALLY at blue mountain.

(additionally, she is back in school now so I ride alone so its not even and option but lets say it is).

 

At JFBB, Shawnee, and Camelback, you can see all if not most of the features you are going to hit. So you can see who is in front of you, stop, and go when you know it is resonably clear. (If someone is sitting on a landing for that longer than I stand there, there is nothing I can do about it, but that rarely happens because I usually stop for a while figuring out what I'm going to do).

 

At Blue and Mountain Creek, the parks wind around. Thus, you can not see the jump before you hit it. This is especially true at Blue where the trail (was) narrow so you had no choice but to ski over the landing. At mountain creek the jump was seperated and there was a way around it, but htere was no telling if someone had fallen on the jump before you. (This was especially true on the first jump on indian pass, you had to bomb from the top and turn a corner and roll into hte jump with maybe 100 feet of in run to decide to hit it or not). I've bailed a lot of times from hitting a jump if there are people standing around - maybe there is someone down on the other side, maybe not. I usually take the ramps from the edge because most people take them from the middle. Again, you just don't know.

 

So what is the solution? Blue took a good step forward by widening their trail. I've seen a lot of patrol standing near jumps/riding through the park keeping landings clear and waving off riders who are going to hit a jump when it is obstructed. But in reality it is not a question of if but when someone gets hit. I've narrowly missed a lot of people, including one at Jack Frost a few weeks ago that I purposely fell really hard to avoid them - I ended up tumbling down the whole landing because I threw my legs out of hte way to clear their head. Last year I went over a jump at creek and ended up there was a kid sitting there and I had to lift my legs really high when I was landing to clear him and kneed myself in the jaw and again went for a slam - so it happens. Thats why I flip out when I see people sitting there - because most likely I get hurt instead of them. But eventually there will be a kid who gets hit.

 

It is worse with skiers, I fell on a jump but cleared out to the side, was sitting maybe 3 feet from the woods not on a landing for the jump but downhill of it. A skier came over the jump and his ski popped off when he landed, and it spun really fast and hit me in the back of the head. It left a 1/8" gouge in my helmet and knocked me over. Imagine if I didn't have a helmet. I wouldn't sue the kid coming over the jump, and it wasn't my fault to be sitting there because I was on the side, it was just an chance accident. Luckily I had a helmet on.

 

 

This is why I think its ridiculous when you talk about people skiing quickly down a green trail. Compare what happens there, at least there you see the people, you should be in control. I agree call out the really bad people purposely buzzing kids. But seriously, if half the people are getting whistled at, and there aren't any accidents, you should focus your attention elsewhere.

[ski911]

If you hit a jump, that is not clear, and hit someone, it IS your fault. You should always spot your landing with a spotter or yourself. If you don't know...don't go (this does not apply for lifeguarding)

[Tyler]

If you hit a jump, that is not clear, and hit someone, it IS your fault. You should always spot your landing with a spotter or yourself. If you don't know...don't go (this does not apply for lifeguarding)

if you went down and spotted the landing everytime yourself, you would never get to hit the jump...nice try though

Edited January 15, 2007 by Oakley21

[ski911]

Once again, proving what is wrong with our society. Take some responsibility for your own actions. All I am saying is, if you do not know that the jump is clear, don't go! If you want to make sure you get to hit it every run, just ask someone to spot you. If no one is around you have a few choices:

1. Wait till someone shows up

2. Check it yourself and hike back up

3. Just go blindly and assume the responsibility of your actions.

[Dan-]

I guess this is what big ski companies enjoy doing these days... There not so worried about YOU. There worried about getting sued, and THEM loosing money. So they imply stupid ideas like this. It's pointless. Oh, and going slow and making turns.. You can only get so good by doing that. It takes experience to make high speed arc turns. When going slow you won't really use an edge, you'll just slide. Last time i checked, you want to use the edge, and sidecut to make the turn, not slide and redirect yourself.

[AtomicSkier]

I'm going to ski so fast tonight my hair will catch on fire

[method9455]

Once again, proving what is wrong with our society. Take some responsibility for your own actions. All I am saying is, if you do not know that the jump is clear, don't go! If you want to make sure you get to hit it every run, just ask someone to spot you. If no one is around you have a few choices:

1. Wait till someone shows up

2. Check it yourself and hike back up

3. Just go blindly and assume the responsibility of your actions.

 

What do I do, ask someone I don't know to go down and check if a landing is clear. But we need a signal, and do they know what jump I'm talking about? And what are they doing in the park anyway if they aren't hitting stuff? I'd rather they're not in the park than just cruising around.

 

Ski you just don't get it. If you "hike back up" from the first hit on Indian at Mountain Creek, - you still wouldn't be able to see the landing. Not to mention it is a 500 vertical foot hike, a thousand people would pass you and void your 'it was clear' assessment anyway. Jumps require a lot of speed, you can drop from the top of the mountain, go down half its vertical, and still have to jump really hard to clear a jump. This isn't like a rail where you start 50 feet before it.

 

Someone spots it great, what happens on the next jump? Or the one after that? At Mountain Creek you have 3 hits with blind landings in one run, but none are visible from the others. So now its a 3:1 spotter to rider ratio?

 

 

This is the problem - if ski patrol doesn't understand the park AT ALL, how are they supposed to patrol it?

 

Here we have a ski patroller applying the skiers responsibility code (which I agree needs to be followed) in a situation outside the realm of its creation. It is no longer about overtaking skier versus the skier being passed. We can't let newbies just get a get out of jail free card for endangering everyone. When I tell a father that his son is in a place where he could killed, and he tells me I need to watch out when I do have a spotter (who told the dad he and his son had to move and the dad laughed), and when I'm out there trying to educate the public, and that father tells me to fuck off. What do I do? If there is a gun range with signs all over it saying danger, get out, and a Dad walks through with his kid and they tell him to leave because it is dangerous, and then a bullet comes through the trees and kills him - is that the shooters fault? He couldn't see the guy, but should he have not shot the bullet because it is possible someone may be in the area that is supposed to be closed? When do the people in the way become responsible?

 

I know ski patrol/park rats don't always get along, but that isn't a reason to look away from a very grave problem and just blame it on the people riding park. If the mountain is putting this park up, they need to do something about the crowds. Mountain Creek, Camelback do the park pass. I've noted before JFBB seems to have a lot of Rangers around. Blue is doing the Staircase idea, we'll see. And if a patroller just can't get along with the times - maybe they shouldn't be allowed to patrol anymore. Terrain parks are the way of the future, if you can't wrap your head around reality and protect the people in them, don't be a patroller. You are only making the mountain more dangerous by ignoring the issues, and I don't like the idea of dieing for your (and a lot of other patrollers) inability to rethink the skiers responsibility code in relationship to the new paradigm of terrain park riding.

[method9455]

I guess this is what big ski companies enjoy doing these days... There not so worried about YOU. There worried about getting sued, and THEM loosing money. So they imply stupid ideas like this. It's pointless. Oh, and going slow and making turns.. You can only get so good by doing that. It takes experience to make high speed arc turns. When going slow you won't really use an edge, you'll just slide. Last time i checked, you want to use the edge, and sidecut to make the turn, not slide and redirect yourself.

 

Exactly and when your sidecut = huge turns, you are in control but you don't slow down. Control and speed are two separate issues. You can go plenty fast on a green trail and stay 20 feet away from everyone, I don't see an issue with going fast on a green trail without buzzing people, and sliding near crowds, but there is no point for me to ride if I have to slide down the whole open trail because I can't ride my board the way it is meant to be ridden. (I'm serious about the can't slow it down part, when I ride with slower friends I need a different board. I had a guy come in yesterday to rent a different board so he could teach his girlfriend - you can't go slow on racing snowboards, they aren't nearly as flexible as skis)

 

We might need to go the route of Colorado - you can't sue the ski hill for injuries resulting from an accident on the hill in most circumstances. You can sue the person who hit you (i'm fine with that, I don't hit people), or if they run you over with a groomer or something you can sue them. But if you fall and die - the mountain won't give you anything. That makes sense to me. Skiing is dangerous, no matter how safe you think it is at these little mountains it isn't safe.

 

One student from my town died in 1992 at Mountain Creek - ending the ski team at both high schools. Another student also died at Mountain Creek from the ski team crossing the street in front of the Great Gorge lodge. The coach for the team was my architecture teacher and he was telling me about it last year.

 

More recently Eddie Jackson, class of 2002 at my high school - died during Ski Club at Shawnee mountain on a green trail, and he was an expert skier.

 

The sport is not safe, and if people can't accept that - don't do it.

[ski911]

I fully understand how it "should" be, and I am all for terrain parks and jumps and all that stuff (I am definately on your side when it comes to the progression of this stuff). What I am simply trying to get across is the mentallity of most of the industry still. Especially in the east. I know you cannot always spot a jump easily, and there may be some guessing involved. I just want you to know that if you run into someone, it is your fault. I'm not saying I agree with it 100%, that is just how it is.

 

It is just like skiing a trail with "blind" turns. You are responsible for the downhill person. If you come flying around a turn and run into someone that has fallen or is slower, it is your fault.

 

I am also very aware of how skis work. I disagree with you about not being able to carve at low speeds. It is not easy, but can be done.

[Tyler]

ive seen this on a few golf courses with blind corners: but a rounded mirror on a pole to help you see, so you dont hit anyone. Same idea for a terrain park, might work, might not, just a thought

[method9455]

ive seen this on a few golf courses with blind corners: but a rounded mirror on a pole to help you see, so you dont hit anyone. Same idea for a terrain park, might work, might not, just a thought

 

That actually is a really good thought, a REALLY good thought. Just throw a convex mirror up there and you only need to be able to see it about 20 feet before you hit the jump, that is about the last moment you can decide to bail or not, but luckily you are close but it is blind. If they just put a mirror on a tree above the jump, maybe 3 feet in diameter, you could tell. From a liability stand point - if they got that worked out it would absolve a lot of the issues the mountain has. Right now if you follow my train of thought where the rider coming downhill is not responsible, and the downhill person is not responsible - it leaves the mountain responsible for either creating that situation or for not providing rangers - which is a place I don't want the mountains to be in.

[Skizilla]

ive seen this on a few golf courses with blind corners: but a rounded mirror on a pole to help you see, so you dont hit anyone. Same idea for a terrain park, might work, might not, just a thought

 

AN EXCELLENT IDEA!!! Props!!!!

[pyro_boarder]

Does anybody have access to a radar gun? So we can see how fast we're going?

 

I like the idea of a mirror..for big features in the park..

 

If you want a radar gun you can get one for 20-30 form the toy store.

http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-J2358-Hot-Whe...r/dp/B000EHLB0M

 

It's actually supposed to be pretty good.

[Skizilla]

If you want a radar gun you can get one for 20-30 form the toy store.

http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-J2358-Hot-Whe...r/dp/B000EHLB0M

 

It's actually supposed to be pretty good.

 

That's way too cool.

[stever2003]

we could clock the ski patrollers and whistle at them when they're going too fast.

[method9455]

Ha I would love to know how fast I'm going at points, that would be pretty sick.

[method9455]

Well when I wakeboard our boat has a speedo and we find the best wakeboarding is at 23 mph - which compared to snowboarding feels really damn slow, even slower than just cruising forget bombing a run. I would estimate my cruising to be like 25, fast is like 40ish, and I could see bombing into something at 50, 55. I don't think I've gone 60 or more on a snowboard yet, but I've bombed some really steep runs just straight down to see what happens and your going really fucking fast.

[method9455]

Yea the difference is that I have a helmet and I also think that snowboarding, although less stable at speed, is safer when you crash. You have a triangle created between your hips and the board, which really prevents lower body injuries - unless you impact something lower body injuries are minimal and those are usually the catastrophic injuries that screw up skiers - knee damage and such. Upper body damage, you might break a wrist or your arm or shoulder easier than skiing, but those are fixable and dont' have much influence on being able to go out or not - plus we dont' have poles to really fuck up our shoulders if you snag them on something. Basically if you fall on a snowboard going really fast, you tumble a bit or slide really fast, but as long as you don't hit a tree the risk for injury is very minimal.

 

Probably my favorite fall, I was bombing a run in Tremblant going pretty damn fast, and just tried to make a turn too tight for the speed and tumbled for a few flips, and when i stopped tumbling I was still travely probably 40 miles an hour head first on my back. The board was up in the air above me, and I was sliding down this trail for maybe 200 or 300 feet just gaining speed. I put one of my arms out and dragged it like a brake, and spun around so my board was downhill, and then I touched the board down to the ground and instantly went over the top of it into a frontflip, but put the board down and landed it. My friend couldn't believe it, but it was scary as hell to be sliding faster and faster toward the end of the trail and a thing of trees knowing if I didn't slow down I was toast. On skiis, not sure what would have happened but there was no way to slow yourself down there with just your boots, and i would have lost my skis a while ago.

[Skizilla]

Yeah if someone gets one definately bring it to PASR day at CB. It would be fun to hang out at Cliff and check out how fast people are bombing down.

[method9455]

I have a helmet but back when I used to ski my fastest..when I was in high school..I didn't wear a helmet. Luckily as far as I remember, I never wiped out while straight running an icy black run in a tuck...

 

That would scare the shit out of me, I've worn a helmet for about 3/4 of my skiing, since I was in like 5th grade so I feel kind of naked without one. I've taken maybe a dozen runs without one since I started to wear it, and I just feel really out of sorts.