ben Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 I know. The season has gotten off to a frustrating start, and we're all glad that the cold is finally here. The resorts are finally making tons of snow, and we're anticipating a great late season. Park rats, racers, freeriders, and family men alike, are all hoping for more terrain to open, so that they can enjoy themselves, and do what they like best. And each hopes especially for terrain that will suit his style: the park rats want terrain features and the pipe, the racers gates and a pacesetter, the freeriders more of the front four, and the family men more mild traverses. I page through the posts on this forum, and see that the park rats are well-represented, and clearly in the spoken majority. Like all of the other skier-types, they want their terrain to enjoy, and they want it soon; it's been a tough season so far, and they want now, like all of us, to ride the terrain they like to ride the most. But wildly in contrast to the other skiers, whose terrain is also limited, and who also crave more variety than is yet available, the park rats are quite quick to complain. And they complain the loudest. Endlessly they criticize the limitedness of their terrain, their desire that it open, and the incompetence of the resort in seeing that it didn't open sooner. From their posts comes a sense of entitlement, as if the resort always put some other skier first, or were actively out to disenfranchise them. And through all this the other skiers stay quiet, and wait. This board is the perfect place to complain, yes, to vent our frustrations in the company of like-minded people, and to feel justified when they reply in kind. But when you do so, realize this: That the other skiers are just as anxious as you, to have their terrain open, and wish their resort would focus on it, instead of terrain for everyone else. Complaint fosters good criticism, and good criticism improvement, and for that reason alone it shouldn't stop. But to complain in such a way as to imply that you, above everyone else, are entitled to your terrain, and that you should have it before they theirs, detracts from your purpose, is selfish, and is no more effective than waiting quietly for the rope to drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Well the major difference is that while it has been a really crappy year - that doesn't preclude the park from being good. The difference between a good setup and a bad setup on a rail is about 3 or 4 cubic yards of snow. The difference between a black diamond being open and not being open is thousands and thousands of cubic yards of snow. When nature hands you bad weather - it is expected for some of the trails to be closed. When the weather turns around (as it finally has) - trails open (as they are). Yet, the park has been the same size at Camelback for the entire winter. I wouldn't ask it to be any bigger, just to be better. That is something completely in the control of the management (not even the park crew really whose hands are tied) at Camelback. So regular skiers can understand the weather, but when something is in the domain of human decisions - the complaining gets much louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdew Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Great post ben. Some of us choose to be patient and enjoy the trails that we do get to ski/ride. Sure we wish there were more but we realize all the bitching and complaining in the world will not change the facts of the weather, or the water supply, or the system's capacity, or things that we are not privileged to know about. Many who post seem to write as though there is some personal vendetta that CB has against them. Ah, to believe that one is so important. What a burden that must be. How easily they forget that CB was 100 % open last year on Christmas Eve. Are we to believe that CB chose to be good to the customer last year but this year had a change of heart. Entitlement. Here's what we are entitled to; to choose whether or not we want to pay for a lift ticket to ski/ride at the resort. Too many people think it is about so much more. I will be there maybe Saturday, definitely Sunday, enjoying every single run I take regardless of whether or not it is groomed to perfection or scraped down to the hard-pack. Either one is better than sitting at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski911 Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ben, and I really mean this, you are WAY more intelligent than most of the im-POST-whores on this board and everything you say is spot on. Method, there is almost no snow on LG to work with, as far as additions or changes. To make the changes you all desire would require more snow to be made. This would cause the trail to be closed for a few days. I can only imagine the complaining that would take place if we did close it. Once the East side opens, we will be going back and adding more depth to LG and changeing things up and putting in the little pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizilla Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 The difference between a good setup and a bad setup on a rail is about 3 or 4 cubic yards of snow. The difference between a black diamond being open and not being open is thousands and thousands of cubic yards of snow. Unless you start talking about the superpipe which is taking up so much of the snowmaking resources that they can't even get the rest of the mountain open in a timely manner. If they didn't have to put all that snow in oak grove then rhodo would be open already and laurel glade would be in much better shape. Heck, even the rest of the trails may be open by now. (I still can't wait to hit the sucker when it opens though.) Maybe they will do something to increase the snowmaking capacity now they have a dire need for it with the new pipe. It sucks that the a good deal of the rest of the mountain has to be ignored at the expense of the superpipe. At least mgmt compromised and got marjie's and rocket open. BTW this is no dig on the snowmaking crew. I think that given the limited resources they are doing the best they can. Maybe mgmt can go back to investing in snowmaking instead of building a wave pool or blowrider this year. If I'm not mistaken they even lost a snowmaking pond because of the wave pool. You would have figured they would make a new pond or make the one they have left bigger with the pipe being added??????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 (edited) #1) Its not a superpipe, its a small one. #2) The ironic thing is we're actually asking them to use LESS snow in the park - because none of us like ride on rails. A gapped rail would require less snow. Edited January 24, 2007 by Method9455 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Entitlement? A couple acres of a 100 is all they ask for. I wonder what porportion they are of ticket sales. 2%, 5% 10% They are entitled to a fair porportion. The ironic part about this, is the history of this board over the last 3 years. This board was more about freeriding and racing initially. Sure the park rats are vocal but that is the demographic who shows the most passion and interest to voice thier sentiments via message boards. These are the kids that influence thier parents on where to go. THis is the future. What kid doesn't want to be cool in the park? The kid whose parents tell them that park isn't cool? CB said numerous times that they know where the future is going this summer. They backed the statement this fall by touting thier park features first and foremost in thier printed literature, news and letters. When winter got here.. what? is there a park yet? please don't refer to the beginners park I know some kids who have better features in thier back yards! What is upsetting to most of us here is that they could have easily put a little bit of effort into showing a true commitment to the park scene by just simply setting out a few rails and when things were really bad this season they could have let the kids hike some jibs. I bought passes at CB based on that representation that they were going to change this year. I think CB would serve itself better to market itself like a Alta or a beginners ticket or someother niche market. Oh! The pipe. The pipe is being driven by the CMS and the USASA program which very few of the "park rats" are involved in. It's cool that they are adopting a program, albeit the only one available but it is flawed. Refer to this thread for more info. http://www.paskiandride.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordan Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 bottom line, THERE IS VERY LITTLE DECENT TERRAIN IN PA. thats a fact. I am not nor was I ever a park rat, but the park rats in PA have a point. They are mostly skiers who have hit the ceiling in PA, they have mastered all the available terrain and want a challenge. Thats where parks come in. just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski911 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I beg to differ. There are very few who have "mastered" the terrain. Some may think they have, but, they really haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Papa, Your credibility, and the potency of your responses, have already been destroyed by the sheer frequency with which you post these sorts of replies. But despite this, I'll respond to you in kind. You ask, "What kid doesn't want to be cool in the park?" You maintain that park riding "is the future", and that "A couple acres of 100 is all they ask for." But the park is as far into the sport as you're able to see. At the same time, the racer asks, "What kid doesn't want to shin gates on Raceway, and enjoy the thrill of competition?" A couple acres of 100 is all he's asking for. And the freerider asks, "What kid doesn't want to link turns on Marjie's, and lay out some carves on the runout?" A couple acres of 100 is all he's asking for. And the family man asks, "What kid wouldn't want to be a father, and savor the moment his daughter makes her first turn on Sunbowl?" A couple acres of 100 is all he's asking for. Yet all of these other people, unlike you and yours, realize that they are not alone in their wishes. They are not the only ones making demands. Maturely they stay quiet, and wait. They wait for good snowmaking conditions. They wait for their favorite trails to be made. And they endure the frustration of seeing other trails open, that they would never consider riding. I suggest you do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schif Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 bottom line, THERE IS VERY LITTLE DECENT TERRAIN IN PA. thats a fact. I am not nor was I ever a park rat, but the park rats in PA have a point. They are mostly skiers who have hit the ceiling in PA, they have mastered all the available terrain and want a challenge. Thats where parks come in. just my 2 cents Exactly where I"m at right now. When I first started riding I progressed through each part of the mountain and never even thought twice about jumps or rails. At this stage in the game I have done every black/double black in the area over and over and over again. Within the realm of progression on trails I'm done right about now. There isn't a trail in this area where I feel I have to progress more on. That being said, I am beginning to move to the park. Its a place where I am definately not the best I can be, and I can still progress as a snowboarder. To stick to ripping down trails would be a disservice to myself at this point. If I'm not progressing I might as well just buy a ticket for snowtubing. I beg to differ. There are very few who have "mastered" the terrain. Some may think they have, but, they really haven't. Sure there are people who have not mastered the rest of the mountain, but thats their choice. Its pretty hard to compare a free style champion with a gold medalist racer. I know though that myself and a large number of people have, and are moving forward as mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Your credibility, and the potency of your responses, have already been destroyed by the sheer frequency with which you post these sorts of replies. But despite this, I'll respond to you in kind. But the park is as far into the sport as you're able to see. Obviously - you don't know me. Why would frequency destroy credibility? Hang with the kids including racers and spend the days on the snow that I do listening and learning what the kids who are on the snow want. I am not talking about the once or twice a year kid - although I have taken my fair share to the slopes this year. have you taken any kids to the slope? do you have any thoughts on what the majority of the kids are gravitating to? It's not rocket science. How many resorts were 100% park 2 years ago? How many this year? Get this months Ski Racing magazine devoted to juniors? nope......... SAM, Freeskier, Skiing, Ski, EC Snowboarding, Future Snow, Trans this and that, nope none of them are devoting larger and larger parts to the junior scene. matter of fact the park scene is not worth putting first and foremost at CB because it doesn't truly matter to them as long as they have ticket sales... Funny fact: I heard that the Greeters at CB were proud to tell customers that they had 3000 ticket sales the day before during Xmas break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I know. The season has gotten off to a frustrating start, and we're all glad that the cold is finally here. The resorts are finally making tons of snow, and we're anticipating a great late season. Park rats, racers, freeriders, and family men alike, are all hoping for more terrain to open, so that they can enjoy themselves, and do what they like best. And each hopes especially for terrain that will suit his style: the park rats want terrain features and the pipe, the racers gates and a pacesetter, the freeriders more of the front four, and the family men more mild traverses. I page through the posts on this forum, and see that the park rats are well-represented, and clearly in the spoken majority. Like all of the other skier-types, they want their terrain to enjoy, and they want it soon; it's been a tough season so far, and they want now, like all of us, to ride the terrain they like to ride the most. But wildly in contrast to the other skiers, whose terrain is also limited, and who also crave more variety than is yet available, the park rats are quite quick to complain. And they complain the loudest. Endlessly they criticize the limitedness of their terrain, their desire that it open, and the incompetence of the resort in seeing that it didn't open sooner. From their posts comes a sense of entitlement, as if the resort always put some other skier first, or were actively out to disenfranchise them. And through all this the other skiers stay quiet, and wait. This board is the perfect place to complain, yes, to vent our frustrations in the company of like-minded people, and to feel justified when they reply in kind. But when you do so, realize this: That the other skiers are just as anxious as you, to have their terrain open, and wish their resort would focus on it, instead of terrain for everyone else. Complaint fosters good criticism, and good criticism improvement, and for that reason alone it shouldn't stop. But to complain in such a way as to imply that you, above everyone else, are entitled to your terrain, and that you should have it before they theirs, detracts from your purpose, is selfish, and is no more effective than waiting quietly for the rope to drop. BINGO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 matter of fact the park scene is not worth putting first and foremost at CB because it doesn't truly matter to them as long as they have ticket sales... Funny fact: I heard that the Greeters at CB were proud to tell customers that they had 3000 ticket sales the day before during Xmas break. Papa, I have to absolutely agree with you this time. With CB and it's crappy customer service. Why the hell are they interested in ticket sales? Have you ever heard of Promotion? I hope you would...seeing as you are probably the one here with the most to gain. Let me explain...If you promote the mountain they would have, ummm, more ticket sales. Thus turning more revenue. More money for capital improvements. A sucessful mountain would surely bring more business to the area. Then you living at Northridge would reap the ultimate reward...an increase in property value. I have never seen someone so ignorant to make an investment into an area and then totally rip it. You are the like the president of McDonalds that only eats Burger King. I live in central NJ and promote every chance I get to bring people there. Its common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 And some of the older ones act like them. Papa thanks for helping me find my vioce as a skiier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kragan Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 bottom line, THERE IS VERY LITTLE DECENT TERRAIN IN PA. thats a fact. I am not nor was I ever a park rat, but the park rats in PA have a point. They are mostly skiers who have hit the ceiling in PA, they have mastered all the available terrain and want a challenge. Thats where parks come in. just my 2 cents That is the exact reason that I started snowboarding 2 years ago after 15 years skiing. But when I went out west last year for the first time, I mainly skied because of the advanced terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I have never seen someone so ignorant to make an investment into an area and then totally rip it. I am like the homeowner who beats up on thier builder but only tells thier friends what a wonderful home they have. Ignorant, yeah I was ignorant for not looking in deeper to how CB operates, on the other hand, with the new owner I was being speculative. Besides, it wasn't an investment, it was bought more as a convienence. Now it becomes more of an investment with a new builder at the Four Season and the hotel. Nothing I say will ever hurt thier ticket sales. Might hurt thier competitive programs, but not thier revenue. Ripping it now comes after some really petty stuff, when all combined, after only skiing there 16 times last year, really adds up. Apparently, I expected waaaaay to much from the supposed biggest and best. I was even an advocate of the CMS program until, I looked into it a little deeper and realized that they were likely to get treated the same way the CAT team does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I am like the homeowner who beats up on thier builder but only tells thier friends what a wonderful home they have. Ignorant, yeah I was ignorant for not looking in deeper to how CB operates, on the other hand, with the new owner I was being speculative. Besides, it wasn't an investment, it was bought more as a convienence. Now it becomes more of an investment with a new builder at the Four Season and the hotel. Nothing I say will ever hurt thier ticket sales. Might hurt thier competitive programs, but not thier revenue. Ripping it now comes after some really petty stuff, when all combined, after only skiing there 16 times last year, really adds up. Apparently, I expected waaaaay to much from the supposed biggest and best. I was even an advocate of the CMS program until, I looked into it a little deeper and realized that they were likely to get treated the same way the CAT team does. Sorry for that man, I didn't know the wounds were so deep. Have you ever thought of a management position there? This way you could straighten that place out. You can even park up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Sorry, Ben, but if you truly want to be 'read' as a thoughtful and intelligent person, as opposed to someone sounding like a Frasier Crane impression, I'd suggest you learn some more facts regarding the recent history of these entitlement seeking kids. What's your best guess on what the economic situation would be for PA hills without the influx of these "entitled" snowboarders? And then the jibbers that forced there way into pipes/parks with twintips, despite the early ban on skis on those slopes... At least understand that Sno, Alpine, Tanglwood, Bear Creek, NJ's Mountain Creek, and possibly a few others, would be long ago bankrupt. I suggest you consider a modicum of gratitude to go along with your dismissive sarcasm. The Poconos survived because of these 'sense of entitlement' Ass Clowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Sorry, Ben, but if you truly want to be 'read' as a thoughtful and intelligent person, as opposed to someone sounding like a Frasier Crane impression, I'd suggest you learn some more facts regarding the recent history of these entitlement seeking kids. What's your best guess on what the economic situation would be for PA hills without the influx of these "entitled" snowboarders? And then the jibbers that forced there way into pipes/parks with twintips, despite the early ban on skis on those slopes... At least understand that Sno, Alpine, Tanglwood, Bear Creek, NJ's Mountain Creek, and possibly a few others, would be long ago bankrupt. I suggest you consider a modicum of gratitude to go along with your dismissive sarcasm. The Poconos survived because of these 'sense of entitlement' Ass Clowns. Agreed, if you can believe that but they also need to be a little flexible about the crazy winter we have had so far. It's not all about the park is his point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Agreed, if you can believe that but they also need to be a little flexible about the crazy winter we have had so far. It's not all about the park is his point. thats the whole point you and others are missing. you don't need much snow to set out some rails and boxes, actually you don't need any, ever heard of Snowflex or the facility they are building at meadowlands? Nips was even in center city boston in an invite only rail comp utilizing hundreds of bags of crushed ice this fall. When BB couldn't open a trail thanksgiving week they still set a rail out for the kids to hike and jib. etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) Ok, I'm going to give this a shot but it seems a few people in this thread are hell bent on "shutting up" the park rats. As mentioned before a good setup does not require very much snow at all. I'm not talking about jumps and other snow features, just rails. Also you will notice that for the most part the "whining park rats" have kept their mouths shut about jumps because they know snow is at a premium right now. I'm not sure this point is being driven home enough so to re-emphasize... rail jams happen in the SUMMER because so little snow is needed for a jib to work. If you can open a trail you can have well setup jibs on that trail bottom line. CB has the opportunity to setup a fun and progressive park because they have 1) more than enough snow 2) a talented park crew 3) the capitol to make it happen. Unfortunately there is a list of excuses why it won't happen which can basically be summed up with, CB management has decided how to setup the park rather than letting the talent and knowledge of the park crew (ie those who can/do ride the park) shine through. Also, they purchase/make (I'm not sure which) bad jibs. I don't know who is responsible for this but it seems pretty obvious they don't ride. The poor management decisions are what is so frustrating and what most of the park rats are complaining about. They have nothing to do with the bad weather. There are better ways of setting up parks (including beginner parks) and it appears that CB management is ignorant about them. This is not about park being more important than racing or free riding. The resources are ALREADY allocated they are just being used poorly. The complaining is a call for help to get the resources that are already being used for park to be used more effectively. CB is my home mountain, I ride their pretty much every day and I've spent a lot of time in the park (as most of the other terrain that I like riding isn't open yet). It's a shame they don't do more with what they have. Edited January 25, 2007 by Glenn I'm dumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirfrancisbacon9 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 holy hell i hate it when people call the poconos MOUNTAINS. these are NOT mountains. they are just oversized hills. It is extremely easy for any skier and snowboarder to "hit the ceiling" in the poconos. Once they do, this leads to boredom and regret of purchasing that college/season pass. Whats left? OH a terrain park! Terrain parks mean, "BOY, YOUR NOT HITTING THE CEILING TILL ur A PRO, AND NOT ANY PRO, BUT THE BEST PRO EVER" hence the influx of juniors in the terrain parks in the recent years. you can only do so many ollies on that one mogul on the side ttill u get bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Also thanks to ski for the unexpected but still appreciated support for the park scene. Anyone who thinks he isn't open minded is a moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 thats the whole point you and others are missing. you don't need much snow to set out some rails and boxes, actually you don't need any, ever heard of Snowflex or the facility they are building at meadowlands? Nips was even in center city boston in an invite only rail comp utilizing hundreds of bags of crushed ice this fall. When BB couldn't open a trail thanksgiving week they still set a rail out for the kids to hike and jib. etc etc Snowflex? That's a lame argument. Are the ski areas supposed to run out and buy Snowflex for the park when we have a warm winter? Cut me a break! Are they to cover the other slopes with Snowflex for the non-park customers? How about the tubing hill? And the crushed ice thing. That's just stupid. We are talking about a ski area! The point is that the park is not the only portion of the ski area that is light on snow! How many lift tickets did Boulder sell when kids were hiking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.