Bode update

[DHarrisburg]

I honestly don't get it, DH...aren't the X Games and the Olympics about competing?

 

To be honest they're more about a paycheck and less about the spirit of compettion.

[Ski]

its a different environment in the freeride section of the market. sure, you have guys like tanner and dumont who have made their careers by competing, and winning events like the x games, us open, etc. however, you also have guys like eric pollard, sage catabriga alose, and andy mahre, who don't really compete at all, and are pushing the freeride scene just as hard, but just in a different direction. you dont necesarily have to compete to stay in the game, whereas in racing, that's really the only facet of the sport that matters, is having the fastest time. just two completely different sides of the sport.

 

I'm just kind of confused about racers entering top level competitions that claim they couldn't care less about competing. It's like why go to the Indy 500, climb in a race car, then say that you really aren't interested in winning?

 

I really wasn't talking about the freeride scene.

[Ski]

To be honest they're more about a paycheck and less about the spirit of compettion.

 

DH, if you just posted that the Olympics are more about a paycheck than the spirit of competition, then you're officially nuts and know NOTHING about the Winter Games.

 

I could give you a thousand examples of how absurd that is, but here's a quicky: look at the Summer Games and the US basketball Dream Team. Think about it. Multi-millionares risking career ending injuries to win gold. The average NBA paycheck is the biggest of any sport, yet they play game after game against mostly terrible competition, just to get some sort of glory that isn't just about themselves. They are expected to win and aren't in it for any money or further endorsements.

 

Reason 999: the vast majority of Olympic sports have no paychecks, nor any endorsements.

 

Jeez, I can't even go on. You should go rent Miracle on Ice...

[DHarrisburg]

DH, if you just posted that the Olympics are more about a paycheck than the spirit of competition, then you're officially nuts and know NOTHING about the Winter Games.

 

I could give you a thousand examples of how absurd that is, but here's a quicky: look at the Summer Games and the US basketball Dream Team. Think about it. Multi-millionares risking career ending injuries to win gold. The average NBA paycheck is the biggest of any sport, yet they play game after game against mostly terrible competition, just to get some sort of glory that isn't just about themselves. They are expected to win and aren't in it for any money or further endorsements.

 

Reason 999: the vast majority of Olympic sports have no paychecks, nor any endorsements.

 

Jeez, I can't even go on. You should go rent Miracle on Ice...

 

I'm trying to tell you that the majority of professional snowboarders who compete are doing it for the money and not for the glory of standing on a podium.

[Ski]

-I honestly don't get it, DH...aren't the X Games and the Olympics about competing?

 

-To be honest they're more about a paycheck and less about the spirit of compettion.

 

-I'm trying to tell you that the majority of professional snowboarders who compete are doing it for the money and not for the glory of standing on a podium.

 

 

Olympic snowboarders are doing it for the cash not the glory? If you're that cynical, DH, then maybe you should get a different job and stop envying people with money. To say that 15 year old's who are already coming from relatively wealthy families are driven by money over fame is wrong. Could you be saying that when they turn 17 or 18 or 20, the dream of being seen as the greatest disappears and it's then about cash?

[First Grade Teacher]

I'm getting a beer! Ski is just getting warmed up.

 

[Timeless]

-I honestly don't get it, DH...aren't the X Games and the Olympics about competing?

 

-To be honest they're more about a paycheck and less about the spirit of compettion.

 

-I'm trying to tell you that the majority of professional snowboarders who compete are doing it for the money and not for the glory of standing on a podium.

Olympic snowboarders are doing it for the cash not the glory? If you're that cynical, DH, then maybe you should get a different job and stop envying people with money. To say that 15 year old's who are already coming from relatively wealthy families are driven by money over fame is wrong. Could you be saying that when they turn 17 or 18 or 20, the dream of being seen as the greatest disappears and it's then about cash?

 

Not normally one to step into the breach when DH and Ski are "discussing" but I have to say that my view on this leans towards DH.

 

Of all the inteviews with snowboarders I've seen at / after the X-Games / Olympics (we're talking about freestyle events here not boardercross etc), it all seems to be about self promotion rather than the prize itself. There's never any talk about technical excellence and some of the riders have even said they dont really like to compete but would rather be filming in the BC but they do it anyway.

 

It seems to me to be very different from the skiing world where from an early age a kid may be drilled through race teams with the ultimate goal of olympic glory, like any other sport, maybe it's because at the "grass roots" level, snowboarding is not really considered a sport as such?

[Ski]

Timeless, I don't buy the James Dean wannabe act. I think most kids are more like Shaun White who are grounded and sophisticated enough not to have somehow given up the dream of being seen as the best by their peers. Being the best is exclusively a ski racing thing? No way.

 

I'd be curious what Rob thinks about this. Would either of his kids take a stack of cash over being an Olympic or X Games champion?

[Timeless]

Timeless, I don't buy the James Dean wannabe act. I think most kids are more like Shaun White who are grounded and sophisticated enough not to have somehow given up the dream of being seen as the best by their peers. Being the best is exclusively a ski racing thing? No way.

 

 

Ever seen Danny Kass interviewed?

 

 

I'd be curious what Rob thinks about this. Would either of his kids take a stack of cash over being an Olympic or X Games champion?

 

I think particularly with the X-games there is no choice to make. Winning X-games gold is the key to better sponsorship & more cash, it's not about being recognised as best by your peers. Sean White is the poster child for big money endorsements, though unlike many of the snowboard contenders, he does seem very grounded and is managing his fame / career very well.

[Glenn]

I'm going with DH on this one as well. Shawn White is the exception to the rule, and I've heard him get shit talked many times for basically not being like the other snowboarders. Personally, I don't even like his approach to the sport either, but he is incredibly talented.

 

Olympics I would say is more about the glory, but X-Games is definitely way more about the money.

[First Grade Teacher]

I'm going with Ski on this one! Only because we never agree on anything! No other reason.

 

[Ski]

Ever seen Danny Kass interviewed?

 

Hmmm...I thought Danny Kass was the far end of the spectrum. Sort of like using Bode as an example for the typical ski racer---people would get the idea all racers were alcoholic narcissists.

 

My opinion of the X Games is that it's a fine showcase that at one time could have challenged the Winter Games for some prestige on a limited level, but they chose to sell it out in every possible way. The early X Games were filled with amateur athletes in some goofy sports that were there for the fun, like that chick who kept slamming into the inflatable wall in the downhill snow bike races. The X Games and the Winter Games are just two completely different things. Doesn't ESPN own all rights? I'm not sure how great it is to have a commercial business running a competition...they dump any sport that doesn't pull ratings and when WalMart makes a large enough bid, you can bet they'll be the WalMart X Games.

 

But the Olympic experience is something else. For every Danny Kass, there are hundreds of snowboarding kids with a dream to be the best who couldn't give a crap about payoffs.

 

Just because the loudest portion of snowboarders may be just trying to cash in, there's no way it's the largest portion. And Danny Kass is such a dope that who the hell knows or cares what he really thinks? He says things just to sound cool and contradicts himself from interview to interview.

 

IDK, I just think the concept of upper middle class white kids who have never suffered a day of poverty and have come from families which provide them with everything they need (yeah, that's the actual demographics of sucessful snowboarders) looking to hit the lottery by winning Olympic gold doesn't make sense. Inner city kids with 1.4 gpa's on college scholarships fighting for NBA contracts these kids are not.

 

So what do the kids on PASR think? Would TP4 head to Vancouver for the 2010 Winter Games and win gold in Big Air but trade it in for $200,000? Would TP4 take the cash or take his gold and go on Conan O'Brian and Oprah? Would TP4 like to make the college campus tour scene and let breezy co-eds fondle his medal and listen to them say how amazing he is?

 

To be honest, I just HOPE you're all wrong...I hope snowboarding hasn't become such a cynical endeavor.

[Ski]

I'm going with DH on this one as well. Shawn White is the exception to the rule, and I've heard him get shit talked many times for basically not being like the other snowboarders. Personally, I don't even like his approach to the sport either, but he is incredibly talented.

 

Olympics I would say is more about the glory, but X-Games is definitely way more about the money.

 

I don't disagree that the X Games have changed over the last decade. Even Shaun Palmer was initially in it to be a "Superhero". That was his term.

 

But as to Shawn White: I've heard and read a heckuva lot more snowboarders call Danny kass an asshole than I've heard them say it about the Flying Tomato.

 

Being trash talked by alternative sport people for not being just like them? That's kind of funny. Like U2 being lauded for being the biggest selling (AKA commercial) alternative music band. Huh?

Edited September 28, 2007 by ski

[sibhusky]

Maybe the "competition" is not always the official event. Maybe the competition is press and accolades by their peers without regard to particular venues. Being "famous" as opposed to be being the winner.

[Glenn]

But as to Shawn White: I've heard and read a heckuva lot more snowboarders call Danny kass an asshole than I've heard them say it about the Flying Tomato.

 

I'm not going to say Danny Kass isn't an asshole. But my impression that most snowboarders have alot more in common with Kass than White. Sure they may not be arrogant pricks about it ala Kass. Especially in that competitions are about money. You want to show your skills you show them with film.

 

You would have to be crazy to consider Kass or White on the same plane of skill as Jeremy Jones, and I don't know of anytime Jones has participated in a major competition (although I'm sure someone will point something out). You want fame, prestige, and the coveted "Greatest Snowboarder" tag, at least in reference to freestyle. You show what you can do on film.

 

DH pointed out before that comps show consitancy, but for every White there are 15 boarders who won some competitions and no one knows who they are. Why? Because in the end no one really cares. The ESPN crowd feels they have some pulse on the freestyle community by having the X-Games. In reality they attract fringe athletes who are there to make money or living, not those who are the best (who also make livings through sponsorships rather than competition earnings).

[Papasteeze]

I'd be curious what Rob thinks about this. Would either of his kids take a stack of cash over being an Olympic or X Games champion?

 

Here is the Freestyle progression.

 

- Win swag and cash at local comps.

- get sponsored for gear

- get gear plus travel/comp money

- get gear, travel, doubled comp winnings from sponsors for podiums

- get gear, travel, podiums, film segments

- get pro models, travel, endorsements, podiums and or segments, stipends/salary

- Form a company, try to sell stuff with your name on it.

 

Would they take the money in lieu of competing in the Xgames or Olympics? at this point, I think so. Now that might change, but all the top guys in FS are angling for the cash.

[Papasteeze]

Read this article on Simon Dumont - He aspires to be in the Olympics.. The comments at the end of the article sort of give a feel for the general attitude.

 

http://newschoolers.com/web/content/news/news_id/1592/

 

Here is an excerpt

 

 

“Speaking of that, in the intro to the halfpipe section in Yeah Dude, it was really nice to hear you say how important it is for you to push the sport in the right direction and how badly you want to see it in the Olympics. A lot of kids haven’t had the opportunity to see that side of you, and they just hate on you and assume you’re in it for the money and call guys like you and Jon sell-outs for riding for companies like Target and J-Lindeberg.”

 

 

“That’s ridiculous. Money is important to me because what a lot of kids don’t understand is that when guys like me and Jon are pushing thirty, we might not be making as much money as athletes and we might not even have jobs. I hope that’s not the case but it’s likely that there’ll be seventeen-year-olds doing tricks we helped innovate bigger and better than us and the industry may toss us out in the cold as athletes. So it is important for guys like us to make our money now, but seeing the sport go in the right direction is very, very important to me, and that’s why I want to see halfpipe in the Olympics so bad. And anyone that doubts what the Olympics would do for skiing and says it would be the hugest sell-out just doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Just look at what it’s done for snowboarding and Shaun White.”

Edited October 1, 2007 by Papasteeze

[Ski]

Would they take the money in lieu of competing in the Xgames or Olympics? at this point, I think so.

 

Wow, you must be so proud.

[Ski]

I'm not going to say Danny Kass isn't an asshole. But my impression that most snowboarders have alot more in common with Kass than White. Sure they may not be arrogant pricks about it ala Kass. Especially in that competitions are about money. You want to show your skills you show them with film.

 

You would have to be crazy to consider Kass or White on the same plane of skill as Jeremy Jones, and I don't know of anytime Jones has participated in a major competition (although I'm sure someone will point something out). You want fame, prestige, and the coveted "Greatest Snowboarder" tag, at least in reference to freestyle. You show what you can do on film.

 

DH pointed out before that comps show consistancy, but for every White there are 15 boarders who won some competitions and no one knows who they are. Why? Because in the end no one really cares. The ESPN crowd feels they have some pulse on the freestyle community by having the X-Games. In reality they attract fringe athletes who are there to make money or living, not those who are the best (who also make livings through sponsorships rather than competition earnings).

 

Got it. But keep in mind I'm not talking about boarders who don't enter comps, nor am I talking about guys at the end of their careers who are looking to get security from a contract. I'm talking about the hundreds of boarders from around the world who enter the Olympic stadium for opening ceremonies. Plus, isn't there only one freestyle event in the Olympics for snowboarders? Is there something other than halfpipe, parallel GS, and snowboard cross?

[Glenn]

Got it. But keep in mind I'm not talking about boarders who don't enter comps, nor am I talking about guys at the end of their careers who are looking to get security from a contract. I'm talking about the hundreds of boarders from around the world who enter the Olympic stadium for opening ceremonies. Plus, isn't there only one freestyle event in the Olympics for snowboarders? Is there something other than halfpipe, parallel GS, and snowboard cross?

 

Well, I don't know any racers from the snowboard side of things do you? The only one I ever knew was that chick who threw a method over the final jump of the Olympics and lost the race. Not exactly fame and glory.

 

I suppose there is only 1 freestyle event, but again, thats the one most people (as I see it) are interested in (that ride anyways). Even at that, I'd rather turn off the Olympics and watch a freestyle video than watch people try and put together a spotless run in a pipe.

 

I don't know anyone who races snowboards, and those who do are far from the norm. So I just don't see that there is fame or glory to be had on a snowboard unless you are throwing tricks. And if you really want the fame and glory you are making films. If you are doing comps it's most likely for the money.

[Papasteeze]

Wow, you must be so proud.

 

 

Absolutely they are both really awesome skiers!

 

BTW we have 15 yr old in the poconos who is at the top of snowboard slalom racing, who isn't pursuing it.

[Ski]

Well, I don't know any racers from the snowboard side of things do you? The only one I ever knew was that chick who threw a method over the final jump of the Olympics and lost the race. Not exactly fame and glory.

 

I suppose there is only 1 freestyle event, but again, thats the one most people (as I see it) are interested in (that ride anyways). Even at that, I'd rather turn off the Olympics and watch a freestyle video than watch people try and put together a spotless run in a pipe.

 

I don't know anyone who races snowboards, and those who do are far from the norm. So I just don't see that there is fame or glory to be had on a snowboard unless you are throwing tricks. And if you really want the fame and glory you are making films. If you are doing comps it's most likely for the money.

 

Parallel GS is huge in Europe. There are academies for them just like the ski racing academies in Europe and around the US. Fame and glory---for these sports---are about your peers, I think. The curling guys, for example, are just looking for recognition among curling fans, since there's no chance of the masses caring.

 

Film fame isn't a big deal among boarder X and PGS racers. Not that they have a choice. But they are looking to test themselves against their peers and not just throw big for a camera.

 

Glenn, I think we're unable to reach a consensus because we're discussing different things.

[Ski]

Absolutely they are both really awesome skiers!

 

BTW we have 15 yr old in the poconos who is at the top of snowboard slalom racing, who isn't pursuing it.

 

I wasn't talking about their skill levels.

 

 

Your second sentence means what? There is a 15 yr old in the Poconos who competes and wins in PGS? Why not tell us more? BTW, I'm not exactly vested in hoping snowboarders have any particular attitude one way or another. It's mildly interesting, but it's not like I actually care that they would prefer cash over glory.

[Glenn]

Glenn, I think we're unable to reach a consensus because we're discussing different things.

 

I guess.

 

You mentioned X-Games, I don't think that gets the respect of the peers. You mentioned Olympics which at least on the freestyle level doesn't get the respect of peers. Like I said I don't know anyone who races on a snowboard. I had no clue there were PGS academies in Europe. I was under the impression that snowboarding really wasn't that fashionable even today in Europe and it is much more a fringe sport there. As such I have no clue how the respect gets spread in those realms, but I would assume that FIS (or an equivalent) and the Olympics would clearly be the picks for showing who is at the top of the sport.

 

That being said, I think I'd fair much better showing some bitties a video of my spinning a huge back country booter in HIGH DEF rather than pulling out some rusty 'ol medal, regardless of discipline. Though I'm sure both equally well.

[Ski]

I guess.

 

You mentioned X-Games, I don't think that gets the respect of the peers. You mentioned Olympics which at least on the freestyle level doesn't get the respect of peers. Like I said I don't know anyone who races on a snowboard. I had no clue there were PGS academies in Europe. I was under the impression that snowboarding really wasn't that fashionable even today in Europe and it is much more a fringe sport there. As such I have no clue how the respect gets spread in those realms, but I would assume that FIS (or an equivalent) and the Olympics would clearly be the picks for showing who is at the top of the sport.

 

That being said, I think I'd fair much better showing some bitties a video of my spinning a huge back country booter in HIGH DEF rather than pulling out some rusty 'ol medal, regardless of discipline. Though I'm sure both equally well.

 

Andrea Lawrence is as famous today as she was over 50 years ago and her medals aren't rusty. Jonny Moseley will always be a million times more famous for Nagano than he will be for his fourth place dinner roll bullshit. It's all in one's own perspective.

 

If you've set a goal and attained it on an Olympic level, then your medal will never get rusty.

 

Bode will be loved for his two silvers, but even more so for losing a pole in the slalom and nearly winning without it...because-at the time- he had a desire to win and race fans loved him for his effort. You don't have to win to endear most fans---you just have to give it your all.

 

But your perspective is your own. If you see a movie clip as more valuable than Olympic gold, then that's how you see it. To me, big mountain skiing isn't the same as racing. Being the fastest among peers is a greater accomplishment to me than skiing a scary line. Doing a helicopter used to be HUGE when I was your age. An old video of me doing it today would look pretty lame.

 

But isn't it a huge competition to get the best video footage? And a gold medal is just representative of a successful competition, not unlike the way great footage is just a recording of a great trick or line. So, again, there are many ways to compete and so I suppose we're disagreeing on motives. And I still believe the motivation for most kids is the glory in being the best and not swag (Rob's kids aside).

Edited October 2, 2007 by ski