Ski Magazine Survey and Improvements

[Ski]

10 times the snowmaking capacity of Elk??????????? No not at all. They may have a bit more, but Elk has 250 snow guns and purchased 50 new fan guns just this fall. Elk also blows snow as much as any of the other mountains.

 

Eh, do you really believe Elk blows as often and as hard as Blue, BB, and even CB? Elk relies on a colder micro-climate and regrooms old snow while places like Blue are churning out thousands of gallons of expensive manmade. For every $100,000 Elk spends in snowmaking, I bet Blue spends $1 million. Blue's budget is enormous compared to Elk.

 

Elk is MUCH closer to me and I would rather ski there more than Blue (except for the lack of PASR people), but Elk isn't in Blue's league when it comes to burning cash on snowmaking. If it's not 10x, then it's pretty close. Jeez, it wasn't that long ago when a fire completely destroyed Elk's pumphouse system and they had zero snowmaking.

 

Luckily, I live close to a better snowmaking system than either mountain and we have MUCH less crowds than Elk Just don't tell anyone.

[phillycore]

IMO the only thing that sucks about Elk is the lifts...

 

well..... except for the location

[bigdaddyk]

... even blue has better snow than elk

 

I would argue about that. I like Blue, but I feel that the snow conditions at Elk are a lot better. I've been to both places, a few times over the last few years,

[bigdaddyk]

I've not made it to Elk yet, but if the snow is worse than Blue's then I'm never going

 

The conditions have always been really good at Elk, when I was there. You're missing out, if you don't try it.

[Ski]

The conditions have always been really good at Elk, when I was there. You're missing out, if you don't try it.

 

Yeah, for sure, Timeless. Some of us are picking on the Ski Mag survey hype which is, for the most part, totally goofy. I mean, Elk has better weather than my house? I probably live less than 27 miles as the crow flies...we have the same damn weather no matter what some dude in West Buffalo says on his survey form.

 

But Elk is also a hidden gem that is best experienced during a midweek afternoon. It's a shame they can't keep ticket prices down so more people would be willing to just give it a try.

 

Elk is NOT a smaller version of Vermont skiing. It's not even a smaller version of Catskills skiing. But it is a great hidden spot in the Endless Mountains that has a really unique, layed back feel. You get the county or state owned feeling, but without the savings that government run ski areas can offer.

 

Pick a day that you can ski/board for enough hours to get your money's worth, on a day with good weather. You'll be impressed...

[Rowsdower]

I rode at Elk once a couple years ago in the beginning of January. The mountain faces due north, it was cold as hell and I swear its PA's windiest mountain. We had wind chills in the single digits all three days I was there. They had maybe a third to half of their terrain open, the conditions on some trails was nice but on others it was pretty sketchy (icy). They have this idiotic practice of blowing snow on one trail at a time, and most of their snowguns need to be towed around on those stupid sled things. Oh, their park was absolutely non-existent, even when they have it open it doesnt look like its worth the time. Their expert terrain was icy and while the extra... challenge, was interesting it sure wasnt enjoyable.

 

To sum it all up Elk seems like a fun mountain to cruise around when they have ideal conditions. Other than that I'd probably rather go elsewhere if I had to choose over different Poconos resorts. How they beat out most New England resorts is beyond me.

 

Hell, they dont even have a hotel like friggin Bear Creek... geez.

[Ski]

I rode at Elk once a couple years ago in the beginning of January. The mountain faces due north, it was cold as hell and I swear its PA's windiest mountain. We had wind chills in the single digits all three days I was there. They had maybe a third to half of their terrain open, the conditions on some trails was nice but on others it was pretty sketchy (icy). They have this idiotic practice of blowing snow on one trail at a time, and most of their snowguns need to be towed around on those stupid sled things. Oh, their park was absolutely non-existent, even when they have it open it doesnt look like its worth the time. Their expert terrain was icy and while the extra... challenge, was interesting it sure wasnt enjoyable.

 

To sum it all up Elk seems like a fun mountain to cruise around when they have ideal conditions. Other than that I'd probably rather go elsewhere if I had to choose over different Poconos resorts. How they beat out most New England resorts is beyond me.

 

Hell, they dont even have a hotel like friggin Bear Creek... geez.

 

To be fair, if it was single digits there, it was single digits most other places...although BC could have been in the mid-30's...and I like it without a hotel.

 

But their slow motion snowmaking is what's going to eventually crowd things up a little at Sno. Montage 'stole' a lot of Elk passholders when they first opened, but many went back when Montage failed to invest in snowmaking. Now, Elk will have to make a critical decision because people like you aren't fooled by hype. And people are going to to see all that real snow at Sno and wonder what Ski Mag readers were thinking.

Edited October 15, 2007 by ski

[Rowsdower]

Its just that Ski Magazine reviews often weigh heavily on off-hill amenities, which Elk is lacking. It just seems odd that they always get #1 in PA, let alone top 10 on the east coast.

[Ski]

Its just that Ski Magazine reviews often weigh heavily on off-hill amenities, which Elk is lacking. It just seems odd that they always get #1 in PA, let alone top 10 on the east coast.

 

Elk doesn't make Top 10's for food, lodging, or off hill activities...or even overall. They just somehow got a rep for snow quality (8th), grooming (7th), weather (7th), and value (10).

 

It's pretty funny to even consider that Ski Mag readers vote that Elk has better snow than Stratton, Stowe, Killington, Tremblant, Hunter, Windham, Belleayre, Smugglers Notch, Gore, and Whiteface, just to name a few.

 

Value is just as nuts: $51 lifts tickets and $740 season passes are an excellent value?

 

The internet and MB's like PASR are a great tool for people to explore the reality behind the hype.

[skierdaddy]

I've been reading the last few posts on Elk and I laugh and wonder if any of you have been there at all. Elk is a different animal. They don't want a hotel. they don't want big crowds etc. And when I see places like Bear Creek in the same sentence as Elk, I laugh, its like comparing Elk to Stowe or Killington. The it's like skiing in Vermont slogan is based on the remote country like feeling and terrain,and is not all that far fetched. again, its not even close to most in vermont. But, as far as OKemo or Stratton, the conditions there a better most of the time, the amont of challenge at Elk is just as good. Okemo is not challenging at all and either is Stratton.The resort mindset is to and always will be to provide its season pass holders and loyal skier base with the best conditions for pure skiing and riding in PA... The conditions at Elk are very good for a pennsylvania mountain and the trail layout and terrain is without question the best in NE pa. I have been skiing for over 20 yrs and have skiied every mountain in pa many times including seven springs, denton hill and blue knob. If you want hotels, massive terrain parks for kids, waterparks etc. Elk is not catered to you. And while Elk may not have the most snowmaking, the quality of snow is top notch for pa and they have over 250 snow guns and blow snow on about 4 trails a day these days. Sno mountain is really not a concern for Elk. As long a they continue to keep the quality.Elk skiers and riders don't want massive crowds and loads of people who don't really know how to ski or ride, hotels and condos etc. It's about the environment of the place and the feel of the place. You can't get that looking at scranton all day.

[RidgeRacer]

I've been reading the last few posts on Elk and I laugh and wonder if any of you have been there at all. Elk is a different animal. They don't want a hotel. they don't want big crowds etc. And when I see places like Bear Creek in the same sentence as Elk, I laugh, its like comparing Elk to Stowe or Killington. The it's like skiing in Vermont slogan is based on the remote country like feeling and terrain,and is not all that far fetched. again, its not even close to most in vermont. But, as far as OKemo or Stratton, the conditions there a better most of the time, the amont of challenge at Elk is just as good. Okemo is not challenging at all and either is Stratton.The resort mindset is to and always will be to provide its season pass holders and loyal skier base with the best conditions for pure skiing and riding in PA... The conditions at Elk are very good for a pennsylvania mountain and the trail layout and terrain is without question the best in NE pa. I have been skiing for over 20 yrs and have skiied every mountain in pa many times including seven springs, denton hill and blue knob. If you want hotels, massive terrain parks for kids, waterparks etc. Elk is not catered to you. And while Elk may not have the most snowmaking, the quality of snow is top notch for pa and they have over 250 snow guns and blow snow on about 4 trails a day these days. Sno mountain is really not a concern for Elk. As long a they continue to keep the quality.Elk skiers and riders don't want massive crowds and loads of people who don't really know how to ski or ride, hotels and condos etc. It's about the environment of the place and the feel of the place. You can't get that looking at scranton all day.

 

I think Elk is more challenging than Stratton....probably not saying much though

[Ski]

I've been reading the last few posts on Elk and I laugh and wonder if any of you have been there at all. Elk is a different animal. They don't want a hotel. they don't want big crowds etc. And when I see places like Bear Creek in the same sentence as Elk, I laugh, its like comparing Elk to Stowe or Killington. The it's like skiing in Vermont slogan is based on the remote country like feeling and terrain,and is not all that far fetched. again, its not even close to most in vermont. But, as far as OKemo or Stratton, the conditions there a better most of the time, the amont of challenge at Elk is just as good. Okemo is not challenging at all and either is Stratton.The resort mindset is to and always will be to provide its season pass holders and loyal skier base with the best conditions for pure skiing and riding in PA... The conditions at Elk are very good for a pennsylvania mountain and the trail layout and terrain is without question the best in NE pa. I have been skiing for over 20 yrs and have skiied every mountain in pa many times including seven springs, denton hill and blue knob. If you want hotels, massive terrain parks for kids, waterparks etc. Elk is not catered to you. And while Elk may not have the most snowmaking, the quality of snow is top notch for pa and they have over 250 snow guns and blow snow on about 4 trails a day these days. Sno mountain is really not a concern for Elk. As long a they continue to keep the quality.Elk skiers and riders don't want massive crowds and loads of people who don't really know how to ski or ride, hotels and condos etc. It's about the environment of the place and the feel of the place. You can't get that looking at scranton all day.

 

Have you ever talked to the founder of Elk or any department heads about the whole 'not wanting to be crowded' thing you keep mentioning? Do you have any idea how much of a battle it has been for them to get skier visits? Jeez, you make it sound like they turn people away or that it's a choice not to spend hundreds of thousands on snowmaking and a park. Elk actually has plans for investing in a park and snowmaking, they just don't have the money. Saying they just don't care to have crowds is reminds me of Pee Wee Herman falling off his bike and saying, "I meant to do that."

 

And Elk isn't worried about Sno? How were the years right after Montage opened? I believe it took three or four years of mismanagement at Montage before anyone at Elk felt job security creeping back to them. And something tells me Elk would sort of like to have back all the tickets currently being lost to Sno. You don't?

 

If you had the chance to experience the new snowmaking firepower at Sno, you'd have a better picture of what kind of changes Elk will have to make just to survive. Recent weather trends have turned Elk's claims of 100 annual inches to more like 40. And when you compress 40 inches of natural snow during grooming, you're now relying on less than 8 inches of snow a season. Is there some hidden secret to making old, regroomed natural snow somehow superior to 8 feet of top-of-the line snowmaking?

 

I suspect the legal problems Sno Mountain LLC endured but hindered early plans has Elk underestimating the impact Sno is going to have. Sticking one's head in the sand and reying on some hyped survey when the new kid down the block is offering real snow----and tons of it---seems a dangerous policy.

 

I certainly hope all PA ski areas flourish, but consider KMart's glum new outlook in another thread today. You may not think Elk is worried, but not offering any summer income alternatives and continuing with minor winter investments would be troubling to me.

[trackbiker]

Skierdaddy is right; If you're looking for terrain parks and/or require High Speed Lifts, Elk is not for you.

The comparison to VT skiing that is often missed is that Elk is almost all Fall Line skiing with the exceptions of Tioga and Kickapoo.

Elk is simply blessed with the best Terrain in PA. (Yes, I've skied Blue Knob.) While I'm sure that if they had the money, Elk would likely install two HS Quads yesterday, they have a loyal nitche following, and run a first class operation.

While Sno may take some ticket sales in the short run out of curiousity, the typical Elk skier is not interested in terrain parks nor the biggest and baddest half-pipe in PA. Plus the top of Sno is flat. The bottom is steep. Any new top-to-bottom trails will require some serious blasting and still won't have the continous pitch of Elk.

While I am optimistic about Sno, and wish them success, as a business person I have concerns about them long term. They are owned by lawyers, who charge the same fees whether they graduated at the top or bottom of their class. (Did you ever ask yours where he was in the class?) You can always "create" more billable hours; you can't create more skiers. Without getting into too many market details, with the money they are spending for a limited market, I would take the bet that 5 yrs. from now Elk will still be under the same management and Sno will be owned by Peak Resorts or Snowtime.

Edited October 19, 2007 by trackbiker

[bigdaddyk]

...Elk skiers and riders don't want massive crowds and loads of people who don't really know how to ski or ride...

 

 

The skiers and riders might not want the crowds, but I'm sure management wouldn't mind.

[Glenn]

Hmm, is it a bit warm in here?

[skierdaddy]

Trackbiker hit the nail on the head of what I mean, And yes I have spoken to the management of Elk. The thing that can't be matched with marketing, new snowmaking big terrain parks and new lifts is the mountain itself. Elk has the best fall-line skiing in the state, hands down. If your a rider that wants big pipes etc, elk is not for you, unless you want better actual "terrain". While elk is not owned by a huge corporation, the family is not hurting and the debt load is very low. They continue to upgrade what is important to them and their loyal base which is quality. They have purchased 75 new state of the art snow guns in the past three yrs, added new tower lifts on several trails including the terrain park and purchased a new groomer. Elk has over 250 snow guns for a mountain with 140 or acres of skiing. That is pretty strong. Remember last january when all of the southern resorts had to close, Elk closed for 1 day on a monday to make snow. I am looking forward to skiing at Sno mountain in the future, I hope the resort is a success. When the new trails are all done I will definetly go there to check it out. But I will never leave ELk, because no other mountain has their terrain and atmosphere. Please understand I am not bashing other mountains, skiers or boarders etc. We all love our sport and obviously are passioniate about pa skiing and riding. Every turn is a good turn. Enjoy!

[Ski]

Skierdaddy is right; If you're looking for terrain parks and/or require High Speed Lifts, Elk is not for you.

The comparison to VT skiing that is often missed is that Elk is almost all Fall Line skiing with the exceptions of Tioga and Kickapoo.

Elk is simply blessed with the best Terrain in PA. (Yes, I've skied Blue Knob.) While I'm sure that if they had the money, Elk would likely install two HS Quads yesterday, they have a loyal nitche following, and run a first class operation.

While Sno may take some ticket sales in the short run out of curiousity, the typical Elk skier is not interested in terrain parks nor the biggest and baddest half-pipe in PA. Plus the top of Sno is flat. The bottom is steep. Any new top-to-bottom trails will require some serious blasting and still won't have the continous pitch of Elk.

While I am optimistic about Sno, and wish them success, as a business person I have concerns about them long term. They are owned by lawyers, who charge the same fees whether they graduated at the top or bottom of their class. (Did you ever ask yours where he was in the class?) You can always "create" more billable hours; you can't create more skiers. Without getting into too many market details, with the money they are spending for a limited market, I would take the bet that 5 yrs. from now Elk will still be under the same management and Sno will be owned by Peak Resorts or Snowtime.

 

 

Billable hours and skiing? Where did Dennis Carlson finish in his class? Wtf? Sno is owned by a skier who is the father of a racer. They bought Sno because they love skiing and it was an amazing deal. You can't create more skiers? Huh? What do you think advertising is for? What do you think buying 193 high end snow guns is for?

 

Best terrain in PA? Nobody's really going to argue because that's your opinion, but have you been to Blue? I'm not a huge Blue fan, but I'll take their two fall line diamonds over anything at Elk and if I want something a little gnarly I'd definitely take Sno's White Lightning or Denton's two steep runs over Elk.

 

What is it with Elk and hyperbole? Best snow, best grooming, best terrain? You guys need to get out a little more.

 

And trying to disparage Sno by saying it's going to be sold to Snowtime? First off, it's cool that you have the inside knowledge. Where'd you get it? I heard something a little different, but my info surely can't be as reliable as your's.

 

The next few years will really test the loyal niche you mention. Charging a premium price and making token improvements while someone down the road provides a superior product will surely weed out your less loyal skiers. But regrooming the same 8 inches of natural over and over wouldn't keep my loyalties.

 

A first class operation? Maybe in some aspects, but charging your race team for use of a slope to hold PA Cup races stinks.

[Ski]

Hmm, is it a bit warm in here?

 

Ha...it's actualy pretty weird up here, Glenn. A lot of soccer parents are Elk passholders (some are instructors and patrollers) and it's as if they've developed an angry attitude about Sno. Sort of a BC v. Blue thing, but it's odd because it hasn't existed since there was an inter-mountain adult race league.

 

Which brings up an interesting possibility...

 

Hey, Skierdaddy: Elk skiers ski slower than arthritic grandmas

[First Grade Teacher]

Elk is a great mountain but it isn't challenging at all! The snow is usually pretty good and it has a great bar. All of the other amenities are very old and run down. Elk has it's charm and that's it.

 

[Rowsdower]

Getting 25 new guns a year is nothing compared to getting almost 200 all at once. Elk needs to step it up or its gonna get outpaced really quickly by the newer shinier mountains in the area.

[Ski]

Lol...is there really a BC vs. Blue debate?????????

 

When BC gets their 8-pack installed Blue will be in big trouble.

[Rowsdower]

Or their 30ft wide magic carpet... for their new superduper pipe that nobody can get out of.

[Ski]

Lucky for Blue that BC didn't build an indoor pipe like Sno...

[Glenn]

Ha...it's actualy pretty weird up here, Glenn. A lot of soccer parents are Elk passholders (some are instructors and patrollers) and it's as if they've developed an angry attitude about Sno. Sort of a BC v. Blue thing, but it's odd because it hasn't existed since there was an inter-mountain adult race league.

 

When I had that job in stroudsburg I work with a lady who was from the honesdale area. She used to always tell me to come to elk, that it was the best in PA, and could really challenge my skills. She also claimed she could torch me down any trail, anywhere.... with her straight skis, but thats neither here nor there. She also went on to say that montage was a lousy mountain, with super sketchy locals, repeatedly saying "Don't mess with valley people."

 

Any ways, despite rocking some old gear, she did have a sort of yuppie attitude about both skiing and elk (life in general?), that from my experience permeated the mountain/experience. Sure it's rustic, and out in the middle of nowhere, but the pass prices, the outfitters nearby, and the clientele all seemed a little stuck up and over the top for me.

 

I suppose it's similar to Alta going on about how they have the best conditions... not really because they do, but because there is a certain exclusive, and yuppish attitude is what the mountain represents.

 

I'm really going to have to give this place another try under a more typical circumstance to get a better idea of what this mountain is all about.

[poconoceancity]

She also went on to say that montage was a lousy mountain, with super sketchy locals, repeatedly saying "Don't mess with valley people."

 

Cole and Ty...I wouldn't mess with them.