new trails

[ski14]

are there names out for these trails yet? and a new map

[riderossi]

are there names out for these trails yet? and a new map

 

I hope you aren't thinking that 7 new trails means 7 trails that are top to bottom/ half mountain trails.

[skibum2007]

I hope you aren't thinking that 7 new trails means 7 trails that are top to bottom/ half mountain trails.

 

 

They have not given the new trail name out yet - so far only one is done for this season and I have not seen a map either. They did announce today they plan on opening dec 8th

[stever2003]

They have not given the new trail name out yet - so far only one is done for this season and I have not seen a map either. They did announce today they plan on opening dec 8th

The article in this post had the marketing director saying that there will be seven new trails for this year.

[trackbiker]

There's no way they're getting any of those trails on the map they showed at their presentation to the bottom of the mountain without some serious blasting and grading. And that takes a lot of time and permitting. Isn't that resevoir at the bottom a drinking water supply?

I would think that they would do the new trails when they install a new lift. Hopefully for next season.

[riderossi]

The article in this post had the marketing director saying that there will be seven new trails for this year.

 

And those seven trails include the one actual trail, plus all of the [multiple] crossovers involved with it. Also they cut out an area of trees where the half pipe is supposed to go, that's another. And so on and so on... One "actual" trail for this season.

[Schif]

There's no way they're getting any of those trails on the map they showed at their presentation to the bottom of the mountain without some serious blasting and grading. And that takes a lot of time and permitting.

 

I've actually been wondering about this myself. I've been in the, and I'm using the term extremely loosely, "back country" where they are cutting the new trails. The top part is wide open and easily turned into trails, the bottom half however is heavily contoured, rocky, includes some huge boulders and outcrops and the terrain is just not suitable for trail right next to the existing ones. I've had to hike out of that area on a few occasions because I just couldn't get back on a board.

 

I'm curious whether they will attempt to grade this area or simply reroute the trails around the large knoll in question.

[trackbiker]

I've actually been wondering about this myself. I've been in the, and I'm using the term extremely loosely, "back country" where they are cutting the new trails. The top part is wide open and easily turned into trails, the bottom half however is heavily contoured, rocky, includes some huge boulders and outcrops and the terrain is just not suitable for trail right next to the existing ones. I've had to hike out of that area on a few occasions because I just couldn't get back on a board.

 

I'm curious whether they will attempt to grade this area or simply reroute the trails around the large knoll in question.

 

If you look at a topographical map of that area, the terrain is very steep and would require some serious regrading, cut around the side of the mountain to get a blue trail to the bottom.

 

And those seven trails include the one actual trail, plus all of the [multiple] crossovers involved with it. Also they cut out an area of trees where the half pipe is supposed to go, that's another. And so on and so on... One "actual" trail for this season

 

The problem with the marketing director's statement is that when they have only ONE new, unlit trail this year, no one will believe them when they do have a high speed lift and six more trails next year. "Never promise more than you can deliver."

 

People keep saying that they "listen to the customer". Maybe they listen to the jibbers, because that seems like where all the real improvements are going. (And we all know how much money they have to spend!) The Long Haul hardly ran at all last season. Why would you need 7 new trails over there when you didn't service the 2 you had last season? IMHO, they would be better off getting a High Speed lift and lighting on the trails they have before expanding. The new snowmaking was great, but it was also a given because there really was none there. Buts it's not the only thing required for a quality experience. They should get what they have up to first class before expanding.

 

Hey, before you through out the "hater" icon; They've done a hell of a lot in a short period of time. But there is an old saying...."How do you end up with a $1million in the ski business?

Start with $10million!

[Ski]

If you look at a topographical map of that area, the terrain is very steep and would require some serious regrading, cut around the side of the mountain to get a blue trail to the bottom.

 

The problem with the marketing director's statement is that when they have only ONE new, unlit trail this year, no one will believe them when they do have a high speed lift and six more trails next year. "Never promise more than you can deliver."

 

Dude, look at little closer before you post WRONG info. Here's the paragraph from the newspaper:

 

Andrea Prokop, Sno Mountain

Edited November 29, 2007 by ski

[Melissa]

Jeez, if I didn't know any better, I'd have though Rob had posted all that. Eh, no offense, Rob

 

Damn, Ski, you were up late!

[Papasteeze]

Jeez, if I didn't know any better, I'd have though Rob had posted all that. Eh, no offense, Rob

 

hahahahaaha no worries, has anyone figured out where they are putting the condos yet?

[Ski]

hahahahaaha no worries, has anyone figured out where they are putting the condos yet?

I hope they do 5000 units and make a fortune.

Damn, Ski, you were up late!

Well, I was drunk and got tired of ringing your door bell, so what else am I gonna do at 2am?

[riderossi]

I've actually been wondering about this myself. I've been in the, and I'm using the term extremely loosely, "back country" where they are cutting the new trails. The top part is wide open and easily turned into trails, the bottom half however is heavily contoured, rocky, includes some huge boulders and outcrops and the terrain is just not suitable for trail right next to the existing ones. I've had to hike out of that area on a few occasions because I just couldn't get back on a board.

I'm curious whether they will attempt to grade this area or simply reroute the trails around the large knoll in question.

 

A lot of us have been stuck back there, unless they get rid of some of those boulders they are most likely going to have to go around them. But looking at google earth and similar tools, it looks like rerouting around to the skiers right of the "knoll" wouldn't work out too well. Taking that route would bring them to a grade sloping away from the resort, unless i'm mixing up the picture of the terrain and the way it actual is. The last time i was back there we found a hole that looked like a bears den...we booked it out of there just to be safe

 

Refer to my quick paint depiction:

 

 

 

 

As for the new trail...I am with the majority of the people wanting better lighting and a high speed lift over new trails. But as Ski pointed out i could see where the reporter could have read this from the Sno site:

"New Trails - Sn

[stever2003]

Where are they going to install the new lift? With the other two lifts at the bottom, it seems like things could be cramped.

[Schif]

Where are they going to install the new lift? With the other two lifts at the bottom, it seems like things could be cramped.

It would replace Long Haul

[trackbiker]

ski, When I first moved back to the area several years ago, I looked at a ski report and IIRC my first post on this forum was, everyone else was 100% open, what's up with Montage? You convinced me to try it and I skied there twice that year after driving by on the way to Elk and Greek Peak for years because the layout never really interested me. Based on those visits and your impressions, I saw the potential.

The comments about needing snowmaking being a "given" was due to the fact that they were only 1/3 open when everyone else was 100% open because they didn't have the snowmaking capacity due to rusted out piping, broken snow guns, whatever. They obviously had the water. Regardless, it was obvious that any new owner had to upgrade the snowmaking capacity BEFORE they did anything else. That was the "given". And Sno did a great job. They installed the best snowguns and the conditions were terrific last season.

About the 7 new trails: They revised their website, but it did originally say there would be 7 new trails for THIS season. Regardless of symantics, where do you think the reporter got that information?

 

"Dude, they only cut a blue square down half the mountain. What should they get up to first class? The snowmaking? The pipe? The rails? The race course? The lodge? The summer park? The restaurant?"- ski

 

How about the Lighting and the Lifts? Scranton and the surrounding area have one of the oldest average ages of anywhere in the country. It is a depressed area. Do you think that people from Philly and Jersey are going to drive the extra miles past Camelback and Blue with 2 HS Lifts each, and past "Big Boulder Park" to go to Sno?

 

I don't have a problem with the Long Haul Lift other than getting it up to design speed and actually running it more often to take advantage of the advertised vertical. But how many people who are used to the HS Lifts at Blue and Camelback are going to come back to Sno because of a new deck on the lodge, slow lifts, and bad lighting?

 

"But there is an old saying...."How do you end up with a $1million in the ski business?

Start with $10million"

It's great that they are trying to maximize an asset that only provides revenue for 3 months out of the year. They are building a great park. But how much money do the jibbers have? Are they paying $3.00 for a locker? Eating on the new deck?

 

I look forward to skiing Sno a lot this season. The snowmaking is the best in PA. It still won't be crowded even on holiday weekends because they don't have HS Lifts. Blue and Camelback are skied off by 11:00am on weekends. Sno still has great conditions on Sunday nights. I'll enjoy it while it lasts, BUT they still have to make money to pay for all that stuff.

I wish them success, and will still ski there a few times per year, but if it ever gets too crowded, I'll drive on by to Elk or Greek Peak, like I used to do.

[Ski]

ski, When I first moved back to the area several years ago

 

Track, I just wanted to point out that Andrea never told the reporter there were seven new trails this season. Andrea is a great hire by Sno and just happens to be a member of the Racewax.com Ski Team The reporter and editor did a bad job and took copy from an older press release and made an implied quote.

 

 

Also, I recall reading that they did upgrade lighting. I don't remember what was written because the only place I wanted better lighting was along the race course for our night league. But they moved the course anyway, so I'm just waiting to see what it's like.

 

 

I talked you into trying Montage? If so, you may have missed my caveats. I've always said that Montage was a little gem that rocked, with a lot of blemishes. But it's always been a personal favorite because of Boomer and Cannonball's headwall skiing.

 

 

 

Jibbers may not buy lockers, but their parents sure do buy lift tickets (eh, and the jibbers themselves). Ask Boulder's management. And Bear Creek. And Mountain Creek would have long since gone bankrupt without their parks. I remember the old VV/GG days. Jeez, it wasn't skiers OR snowboarders that kept Montage alive: it was freaking snowtubing, of all things. The added revenue was the what kept the county from giving up five years ago.

 

 

 

Lastly, I recall that more than 30% of a Pocono ski area's entire annual revenue comes from Christmas week. If Christmas week is bad, a ski area has next to no chance of turning a profit. And look what Sno went through last year. They made ZERO dollars because of Washo and the weather. Let them at least get a little revenue flow going before the next round of "What have you done for us todays".

Edited November 30, 2007 by ski

[Glenn]

Lastly, I recall that more than 30% of a Pocono ski area's entire annual revenue comes from Christmas week.

 

Dude I don't mean to call you out, but I don't know how this could possibly be correct. MLK and Pres Weekends are ALWAYS 2x's as busy as x-mas at CB. I've ridden at Blue during those weekends and had lifts waits close to an hour (before 6-pack, riding the quad).

 

I suppose the families dropping the extra money in the lodges thanks to the x-mas bonus helps somewhat, but with most areas not 100% open, and liftlines shorter than the 2 weekends I mentioned in feb where is all this money coming from?

 

If your numbers are correct, and those 2 feb weekends are as big or bigger, that would mean that running ski areas the rest of the time is a wash for money. Comments?

[Ski]

Dude I don't mean to call you out, but I don't know how this could possibly be correct. MLK and Pres Weekends are ALWAYS 2x's as busy as x-mas at CB. I've ridden at Blue during those weekends and had lifts waits close to an hour (before 6-pack, riding the quad).

 

 

I remember it sounding wrong when I first read it...I'll try to find the stats and the source, but wherever I read it, I'm pretty sure it was reliable...maybe SAM, or something like that.

[Ski]

I can't find the exact NSAA article I read, but here it's referenced in the Washington Post:

 

By Kim Hart

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, January 8, 2007; Page D01

 

It's tough to begrudge these weeks of spring-like weather during what should be the dead of winter -- unless you're part of the multibillion-dollar ski industry. With its record-high temperatures and shortage of snowflakes, this winter is shaping up to be the bleakest in 25 years for regional ski resorts.

 

Resorts typically collect nearly 30 percent of their revenue during the second half of December and first week of January, according to the National Ski Areas Association. This year, however, lodges within a few hours' drive of Washington are relying on small patches of rapidly melting man-made snow, and several resorts have been forced to close their ski operations altogether.

 

Full Article

Edited November 30, 2007 by ski

[Glenn]

Oh, well in that context I guess it makes more sense. 3 weeks of steady business certainly means a lot for a pocono ski area.Oh, well in that context I guess it makes more sense. 3 weeks of steady business certainly means a lot for a pocono ski area.

[Papasteeze]

Can anyone update any information they have on thier opening of the pipes this season?

• Have they moved dirt to build a 22' pipe?
   
  
• Did they get a 22' pipe cutter, contrary to the Zaugg website?
   
  
• Do they have an operator for that 22' cutter?
  

If the Sno people are reading this, I think they might be interested to know that Park City brings in someone to do the final cuts on thier monster pipe. There are very few qualified people to use that machine. Now, Park City also was supposed to host the first FIS event around 12/18 - It looks very marginal on whether they are going to make it in time - the weather hasn't been cooperating with the snowblowers.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Papasteeze

[riderossi]

Can anyone update any information they have on thier opening of the pipes this season?

• Have they moved dirt to build a 22' pipe?
   
  no
  
• Did they get a 22' pipe cutter, contrary to the Zaugg website?
   
  I can't answer this but..their website says they did but they have not taken delivery of it yet if they have. As i put in another thread Zaugg says only two mountains this year will have the 22' footer, Sno wasn't listed in those two.
   
  
• Do they have an operator for that 22' cutter?
   
  The Planet guys usually come in and do the work in the park. They are some of the best in the business so i wouldn't be worried about that. Neptune usually comes in and gets things going, and Trent is there putting in rails and such also. I saw him there more than i saw Neptune. Last year they taught the head of the park how to groom the 13' pipe, but he still wasn't that good at it. As of right now they don't have a head of the park so it's all up in the air, but he might be coming back. Also from what i hear though is that Dennis isn't too thrilled with the Planet guys because they aren't spending as much time at Sno as was agreed upon. Don't hold me to that.
  

[Ski]

Oh, well in that context I guess it makes more sense. 3 weeks of steady business certainly means a lot for a pocono ski area.

 

Yeah, I suppose what they call Christmas week is more accurately "Christmas period", or something like that.

[trackbiker]

ski, good points on the late opening. While the weather was bad for everyone last year, Sno didn't open until mid January. That had to put a serious damper on the cash flow. You are right about the Christmas revenues. While Pres. Day and MLK are the busiest weekends, Christmas is the equivalent of about 5 normal weekends in a 10 day period.

Also, you did talk me into checking out Montage. I was there the only day that they ran Long Haul that season.

When the employee was posting a while back he did mention something about new lights on a few trails but didn't give any details. While a whole new lighting system would be nice, a few more strategically place lights to eliminate dark spots would make things much better at a relatively low cost/benefit ratio.

It was also mentioned that the lifts had the drives overhauled. You always mention Long Haul as being a problem. That lift only stopped once for a short time while I was on it last year. Funny thing was, the Phoebe was down for about a 1/2 hr. one time I was there. That is the lift that has taken a beating because it has been the workhorse for years while the Long Haul sat idle. It actually ran slower than Long Haul. I timed them and calculated the speeds.

Sno is doing a hell of a lot. None of us know all the logistics, scheduling, nor money involved. Nor would any of us do the same things in the same order as far as improvements. Plus, It's really easy to spend someone else's money!

Seems like the park has been a focus and the jibbers are happy. I'm a skier. I like to hit a jump in the park now and then when I know I'm not going to get in anyone's way, but as a skier, I have different priorities. Not "right or wrong"; just different. I also know "Rome wasn't built in a day" and they have a hell of a lot going on besides winter stuff with the water park and everything. It's great to see all of the impovements. I just hope the return is there in the long run.

Just for the record, the Elk vs. Sno thing is a non issue. They are two different animals and will only compliment each other. That's why Elk's owner was at the meeting supporting the sale last year. Having two complimentary ski areas will only draw more skiers and riders overall to NE PA.

Does anyone know if they built the Tubing lodge? That would improve things greatly in the lodge by getting all of the parents and grandparents who are hogging tables all day out of the lodge.